dadioles
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Posts posted by dadioles
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We all need reminding from time to time that these (and I include sub 12ft lb air rifles) are lethal weapons that need to be treated with respect.Don't see how this fits in the discussion on the safety of using the HMR.
The rifle should be lethal on its quarry, not on its user....
Simple.... Many of us, and I include myself, get a bit complacent after a few years incident free shooting. It takes an accident like the one described to wake us up a bit.
If the shooter concerned was paying more attention, he would have noticed that a shot did not sound quite right and not fired a second round until investigating what happened to the first. It would only take a moment to remove the bolt and take a look up the barrel. How many people take a cleaning rod with them "just in case" (or even use one!!). My rods stay at home, they would probably get bent in the car. So if I was not sure about a blockage in the barrel that would be the end of my day's shooting.
It is really easy, if you are slightly careless (I have done this too) especially at night, to touch the barrel on the ground and block the end with some mud.
Most shooters learn by doing. They are effectively self taught. We learn by our mistakes and by reading forums like this one learn from each other.
All rifles have the potential to be lethal on the user, it is our care and skill that ensures that it is only lethal on the quarry.
Last year I inspected hundreds of hmr rounds for split cases and found quite a lot with cracked necks caused when they were formed (poorly annealed). It is not a problem and it is well understood. The cracked ones were just as accurate as the non-cracked ones and chrono readings were also the same. My only concern is that if stored in poor conditions the powder may get damp and clump together and that could cause a poor detonation causing the bullet to stay in the barrel. Tip colour is also a myth, the production line uses different colour for different brands and sometimes has too much of one colour so mixes it up. No secrets there either.
As shooters we may store our ammunition properly but who knows what some dealers or wholesalers get up to. I expect some shooters probably store their ammunition in less than ideal conditions.
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I supply my local wildlife park with rabbits for their snakes and big cats. They are head shot with .22lr and they like to have the heads left on. The bullets expand but do not tend to fragment. I only give them the ones where I am confident that the bullet has exited but it would be interesting to have a few x-rayed to see if there are lead fragments left behind. There was talk of using a small hand held metal detector but I expect that would be deluding yourself as I cannot imagine it being sensitive enough to detect fine particles of lead.
HMR bullets fragment like crazy and bits go everywhere. There is not much head left though!
Update....
Having just had a bit of a browse on the internet and seen some x-ray photo's of deer meat, it makes me think that this needs to be taken more seriously and I might insist that heads be removed from head shot rabbits as it looks as though minute particles of lead are probably being left behind and over time that can be significantly toxic.
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Oh well.... someone has to defend the hmr...... might as well be me.
A brilliant round with hundreds of millions sold every year and widely used all over the world by people of all ages and abilities.
After thousands of rounds fired I have never had a problem and I cannot see how I would fail to notice a hangfire unless not paying attention, I could be wrong there.
You were not injured. Maybe that is testimony to the strength of the rifle and an indication that they are designed to protect you from such an event even though the rifle is written off.
We all need reminding from time to time that these (and I include sub 12ft lb air rifles) are lethal weapons that need to be treated with respect.
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Hi let'sshoot
Don't misunderstand me..... It is frustrating to see someone struggling, and being advised to spend money, to set up a rifle and scope when the basics have not been followed. You have been allowed ownership of a centrefire rifle but do not seem to understand how to use it. That may sound harsh but actually I am on your side. How is someone supposed to learn these things? Apart from these forums, or having a knowledgeable mate, or joining a club (not my thing either), you are really left to fathom it out yourself, and it tends to be the blind leading the blind.
Your problem, as posted, is one of poor groups.
There are many possible causes and you have to analyse and work through step by step the possible cause, or causes (it could be a combination of factors).
This will involve a fair bit of paper punching and consequent expense in ammunition as well as time. There are no shortcuts if you are going to get it right.
Your earlier comment about not adjusting the scope until you have better groups is daft and suggests to me that you lack experience and do not really know what you are doing, sorry, no offence meant, we all have to learn.
Starting with your existing equipment...... This is what I would have done.
Remove the scope and mounts.
Thoroughly and properly (rod, jag, solvent) clean the rifle, the bolt, everything. Mega clean. That gives you a good starting point.
Fit the scope mounts, properly tightened.
Wind the scope vertical turret (elevation) all the way to the end (gently!) until it reaches the end stop. Wind it back all the way to the other end stop, counting the clicks. Now wind it half way back again so it is effectively centred.
Repeat for the horizontal turret.
Fit the scope to the mounts and make sure everything is tight.
Set up a big piece of card - at least 18" square with a cross drawn in the middle at about 50 yards and take one shot. If it does not hit the paper, move it closer to 25 yards.
You should not be too far off horizontally unless you have a mechanical problem. A scope should naturally be reasonably aligned horizontally if the mounts etc are all correct.
You may be quite a long way off vertically. You do not want to introduce any extreme adjustment using the scope turrets. If a lot of adjustment is required, shim the scope. Look it up on Google. The aim is to get reasonably close to the centre of the target with a scope adjusted to a fairly neutral position.
When you have done this, and it will not take many shots, you should be shooting reasonably close to the centre of the target at 50 yards. If grouping well, push it out to 75 or 100 yards in order to more accurately setup the scope.
You will probably get a 'feel' for if the scope is dodgy. Adjusting a few clicks either way should move the bullet impact point, adjusting it back again should bring it back to the same point. Too many people have their scopes adjusted to an extreme and it just will not function properly.
Now you can start thinking about group size. If the grouping is poor, start by trying different ammunition.
I would be shooting prone, off a good bipod in relatively wind free conditions. Everything needs to be rock solid.
And so it goes on......
Maybe the scope mounts are at fault (not as common as suggested in a low recoil rifle)
Maybe the scope is faulty
Maybe you are a bad shot
Maybe the ammunition is bad or not 'liked' by your rifle
Maybe the moderator is interfering
Maybe the crown is poor
Maybe it is just a crap rifle and you were sold a dud
Good luck, at the end of all this you will be a lot more knowledgeable, poorer but wiser.
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This is a really frustrating thread and it seems the OP and quite a few of the contributors simply do not have a clue how to set up a rifle with scope and mounts.
It is pretty basic stuff but you do have to be slow and methodical.
Why oh why have you not adjusted the scope to bring the bullets closer to the centre of the target.
If you cannot see where some of the bullets are striking, use a bigger target!!!! or at least set things up so that your groups are nearer the middle and not in the bottom right hand corner.
I need to go and lie down......
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You will not see any meaningful difference in the trajectory of the bullet when shooting in the rain unless you are into long distance targets (over 300 yards).
If the rain is heavy, you will not see very far so your distance is limited, maybe 100 yards at best.
It is still the wind that makes the biggest difference.
The biggest effect of rain is on the shooter.
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Looking at your targets I can see why you are not happy with the groups but I could not help wondering why you do not appear to have adjusted the scope to bring the shots nearer to the centre of the target, even after the first bullet.
Have you got the elevation and windage adjustment on your scope set centrally? or is it near the end stops?
Personally I think most mounts are adequate as there is not a huge amount of recoil so don't be in too much of a hurry to spend more money.
Maybe your gun does not like that ammunition but start methodically with the basics of setting up a new gun with a new scope.
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Yes.... but which gun did you get?
Eagerly waiting in anticipation......
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I am not sure why so many people shy away from asking for the permission to be confirmed in writing.
One possibility is that a fair number of people lack the confidence to be able to draft a suitable letter and therefore avoid the issue. Others may take the view that it is pointless, their word is good enough.
Personally, I NEVER regularly shoot on land for which I only have verbal permission and ALWAYS get the landowner, farmer or whoever to sign and date a note that I have pre- prepared for them.
It has never been an issue and adds a more professional touch. We each have a copy, valid indefinitely until cancelled in writing by either party.
Dekers is right, you are not required to have 'written' permission, just 'permission'. I doubt that Dekers does much shooting on land that he does not have 'written' permission to be on though. And yes, of course you will need 'written' permission for a suitable piece of land in order to obtain a firearms licence in the first place.
It is just about stacking the odds in your favour. You never know what is around the corner. I used to trust people and take them at face value much more than I do now. Having been 'stung' a couple of times and badly let down by someone I naively thought I could trust I am a bit more wary.
Here is a little story, nothing to do with shooting.
My son works for a national retailer. They use plastic storage boxes. His manager told him that he could have some if he wanted them so he brought a few home. They are expensive and not a disposable item. My son, who has some learning difficulties, could not understand why I told him to return them.
Basically, the goods are the property of the retail company. The manager is effectively giving permission for theft. He, of course, would deny all knowledge if my son got caught. My son does not think he did anything wrong, arguably he didn't.
The manager is out of order. Now if my son had permission from him in writing....... that might be different.
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I have not yet had a duff hmr round with the effect you describe.
Presumably the main charge is not igniting? Just the primer?
Did you not hear a significant difference in the 'bang'. That surprises me.
If your rifle is moderated, the bit of the 'bang' that takes place in the barrel is not too loud. The loud 'crack' is when the bullet goes supersonic and is responsible for most of the noise. I do not understand how you failed to notice the missing supersonic bit of the sound and only realised there was a problem by a missing hole in the target.
I would hazard a guess that you have some ammunition that has been badly stored in damp conditions. It would be interesting to pull a few heads and see if the powder is 'clumpy'.
In my experience, cracked hmr cases are not a problem.
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take a look at this works with my arnie http://www.chuckhawks.com/17HMR.htm
A better way to zero a .17 HMR rifle is to put the 17 grain bullet 1.5" high at 100 yards, for a zero range of 145 yards. It would then hit about 0.9" high at 50 yards, 0.3" low at 150 yards, and 5.5" low at 200 yards. The maximum point blank range (+/- 1.5") of the cartridge would be about 165 yards, at which range the bullet retains about 90 ft. lbs.of energy, enough to remain effective on the smaller varmints.
That is quite a lot to remember and you have got a huge kill zone. Your kill zone is 3 inches in diameter which is bigger than a rabbits head. Add in some room for error and a bit of wind and I think you risk too much wounding or at best, body shots which with the hmr is messy and taints the meat. For me, the drop at 200 yards is only of academic interest. 150 yards is a long shot on a rabbit and getting to the 'more luck than judgement' range.
There is no substitute for shooting at paper targets, what works for Chuck Hawkes may not be the same for you and your gun.
If you are shooting for pure pest control (I don't think Chuck Hawkes eats ground hogs) that is not the same as shooting rabbits for the pot where head shots are preferable.
Even Chuck Hawkes said:
".... reports from the field suggest that consistent one shot kills on ground hogs are possible at 150 yards if the shooter has the skill to get the bullet into a vital spot....."
He went on to point out that at 150 yards a 10mph crosswind will move the bullet 8 inches.
I still think that a 1" kill zone for the typical rabbit shooter makes more sense and the maximum distance to head shoot a rabbit is whatever distance you can get EVERY bullet into the area of a 2p coin.
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Fox is not 'good reason' for having hmr or any rimfire.
When you already have hmr and aolq there is nothing wrong with using it to shoot fox in appropriate circumstances.
Personally, I do not think those circumstances stretch beyond 100 yards and generally a lot closer.
The same applies to the .22lr, although with even less distance.
Sadly, a lot of people just could not care less...... If it moves... shoot it... if you wound it.... so what... it is only vermin.
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Just ask for fox as your 'reason' and aolq.
These days aolq is being applied more as standard.
You only need one 'reason'.
It is a bit hit and miss whether or not they will open your ticket. No harm in asking.
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so a zero at 32yrds would be the same as 125yrds with an inch out to that distance
Do you have a clue what you are talking about?
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This is such a misunderstood topic. Daft as it might sound, I even know people who think the bullet climbs when it leaves the barrel before slowing and descending.
Let us start by assuming that you got the hmr because you want to shoot things like rabbits at reasonable distances (If you want to shoot quietly at
yards or less a .22lr is more appropriate).Let us also assume that you want to maximise the 'flat' shooting potential of the hmr rather than shoot everything at a fixed distance.
Here is the trajectory of my own rifle using Hornady 17gr V-Max. In your case you need to shoot targets at different distances to plot the trajectory for your own gun / ammunition.
By zeroing at 110 yards, my bullet will fall within the area of a 2p coin from about 32 yards to 125 yards without any holdover or holdunder.
This suits me and my shooting situations. At 150 yards the drop is 2 inches which is easy to remember. I rarely shoot rabbits that far (never further) and most tend to be in the 40 to 110 yard range.
If you were to choose, in this case, the 50 yard point to accurately zero your scope you will find it is too close to show up any errors. You would easily get almost bullet on bullet at that distance but might find that you are an inch out at 110 yards and errors get compounded. Always finally set your zero accurately by shooting at the furthest distance, and on a still day, on level ground.
The trajectory and your choice of zero point is very dependent on the height of your scope above the barrel.
If you like playing with computers, get a copy of Hawke Chairgun Pro (PC) and that will help to visualise your trajectory and 'kill zone'.
For the short answer...... zero at 100 yards and see how you get on
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Personally I like a higher magnification.
My shooting tends to be more of the 'sniper' variety and I have time to set up the shot so do not have to worry too much about a wide field of vision.
A rabbit head at 100 yards with just a 9x scope is still quite small.
Comments about centrefire are not really relevant because of the size of the target. A head shot on a rabbit at 100 yards with an hmr is a smaller target than a shoulder / chest shot on a fox at 200 yards with a .223
Try a 24x scope, you don't have to use it at 24x but it is handy to have the possibility.
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Not many of the answers given offer any explanation of why the first group of 5 shots were placed differently to the second group of shots.
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Hi Elliott
Assuming that all the bullets were out of the same box the most logical explanation is that your scope shifted.
Ignoring the flier.....
Your first group shot low and your second group shot high.
It was not as though some bullets shot low and some high as you would expect if they were loaded differently or weighed differently.
This was the first group, low - second group, high. As though 'something' changed between the shooting of the two groups.
Each of the two groups is a similar size, so your shooting is consistent (and very good if I may say so).
The question to be answered is what could cause a 'step change' between the two groups. I can only think of your scope moving a click or two.
It would be too much coincidence (but possible?) for the first bullets to be heavy or slow and the next group to be light or fast.
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I am new to centrefire and have a slot for .223 (quite fancy Tikka T3 Lite Hunter).
Until recently I had not come across the practicalities of 'floor plate' or 'magazine' and although, obviously, I am used to magazines - what are the pro's and con's of a floor plate?
My instinct is to stick to a magazine, am I wrong?
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The only thing about using a 'near zero' is that it does not show much of an error. It is, however, good for a quick check.
You can only zero accurately at true shooting distances.
Zero could be chosen by the distance that you most frequently shoot or perhaps (with reference to a trajectory graph) to whatever gives you the flattest shooting.
There are no rules. It is whatever distance suits you, your rifle and ammunition, your target or quarry.
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I suppose the first consideration has to be whether or not you have an open licence otherwise shooting in your shed would be illegal.
The next point is why you need a fowling shot. I don't.
As far as a bullet trap is concerned. I have found a simple sack of sand in front of some bricks pretty adequate for the odd test shot. Even a cardboard box with telephone directories and magazine stacked face on about 6 inches deep holds the bullets quite well.
Just make sure the bullet cannot bounce out at you.
Others will have better suggestions....
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Just ask for 'any other lawful quarry' on your licence and then it is up to you if you use your .22lr or .17hmr against fox. It is then perfectly legal. Without AOLQ or specific mention of Fox you are in a grey untested area of law and that is not a comfortable place to be.
Most forces will not allow either round as 'good reason' based on fox. 'Good reason' for either round is for vermin control. In appropriate circumstances both calibres are excellent for fox.
Ask for a fox condition against either calibre and you may be turned down. AOLQ is being used widely on the new style certificates.
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Good luck with your new rifle and enjoy the time spent finding the best ammunition.
No two rifles shot the same so any advice about ammunition is fairly meaningless.
Just buy a box each of whatever your local dealers routinely hold in stock and try it out. You will possibly see a significant difference. Stick to subsonic expanding ammunition.
When you have discovered which make gives you the tightest group, purchase as much as you are allowed and stick with it.
Price should not really be a consideration as non of it is particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things, you just want whatever is most accurate.
Off a bipod you should quite easily get groups of 5 shots within the area of a 2p coin at 50 yards. Hopefully rather better.
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I reckon you may see a significant difference between some of those bullets. It is whatever your gun likes. No rhyme or reason.
Shoot 5 shots of each at different targets always aiming exactly at the bullseye at about 60 yards in still air off a bipod. That is far enough to start showing a difference.
Don't try and alter your zero or adjust the scope. It does not matter where the bullets actually hit because you are looking for whatever chambers smoothly in your rifle and gives the tightest group.
Fire a couple of 'wasters' when you change from one brand to another before the actual test group of 5 shots.
Next you can try the best of the bunch again at 90 or 100 yards as it seems as though you have done quite well at that distance and it will really sort out which is best.
Some bullets only start to widen out and show their inaccuracy after 60 yards or so.
Bye Bye Hmr!
in Rimfire, Centrefire & Shotguns
Posted
To put things in perspective, I have heard that sales of HMR ammunition are in excess of 5 million rounds per annum in the UK alone. What it could be worldwide will be a very big number indeed. HMR ammunition is far more consistent than .22lr and in my view is quite a remarkable piece of ammunition. It certainly has its place alongside my .22lr rifles. Different tools for different jobs.
Unfortunately it has become fashionable to bash the HMR and yet I rather expect that it is possibly one of the safest and accurate cartridges on the market, particularly when you take into account the training and skills of many users.