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Line breeding again !!


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I see dogmandont and foxdropper having a wee spat about line breeding in general talk so I thought I'd start a thread here for anyone interested. Now I never started a line but was kindly given 2 older bitches and a bitch pup from my mate who kept this particular line for years. Great I thought as both older bitches were top class and had bred good pups in the past so when they came in season I promptly done repeat matings of what had produced before, all I had to do now was wait and I'd have a kennel full of workers.              What a disappointment the pups were shit and only a couple of workers out the 2 litters. Back to the drawing board I then tried 2 outcrosses to different lines, one all pups worked the other was crap with only one pup working.       Now I'm very obsessive so in the meantime I'd been studying what was working for others in this line and decided to breed back as much as I could to a certain bitch that was a great producer. By now my original bitch pup had proven herself and she carried a couple of lines back to the producing bitch and I was then lucky enough to get 2 old dogs straight out the old producer , half brothers to the original dog I used.                                                  I put one of these old dogs on my bitch and it clicked, all pups worked. The old dog then died but I was able to use his brother twice before he died with very good results. I keep nearly all bitches and found uncle niece and half  brother sister to work well although they were actually much closer than that.                                                              Faults. Some crap dogs that wouldn't work  especially in the early stages. Some very undershot, hip dysplasia in a couple and a few naval hernias.                  I think to keep a line going you need to be obsessive stubborn and have plenty kennel space.

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Foxdropper had a very good thread on line breeding on here few year ago lads put up some great and helpfull posts but last few pages of the same thread ended up in slaging matchs and he got it taken down shame it was one the better threads on here.

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21 hours ago, steve t said:

I see dogmandont and foxdropper having a wee spat about line breeding in general talk so I thought I'd start a thread here for anyone interested. Now I never started a line but was kindly given 2 older bitches and a bitch pup from my mate who kept this particular line for years. Great I thought as both older bitches were top class and had bred good pups in the past so when they came in season I promptly done repeat matings of what had produced before, all I had to do now was wait and I'd have a kennel full of workers.              What a disappointment the pups were shit and only a couple of workers out the 2 litters. Back to the drawing board I then tried 2 outcrosses to different lines, one all pups worked the other was crap with only one pup working.       Now I'm very obsessive so in the meantime I'd been studying what was working for others in this line and decided to breed back as much as I could to a certain bitch that was a great producer. By now my original bitch pup had proven herself and she carried a couple of lines back to the producing bitch and I was then lucky enough to get 2 old dogs straight out the old producer , half brothers to the original dog I used.                                                  I put one of these old dogs on my bitch and it clicked, all pups worked. The old dog then died but I was able to use his brother twice before he died with very good results. I keep nearly all bitches and found uncle niece and half  brother sister to work well although they were actually much closer than that.                                                              Faults. Some crap dogs that wouldn't work  especially in the early stages. Some very undershot, hip dysplasia in a couple and a few naval hernias.                  I think to keep a line going you need to be obsessive stubborn and have plenty kennel space.

Goodman steve,you know the craic,hopefully biddy will take one of these days.

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I bred a litter two year ago 

bitch was very closely bred , but I used an unrelated dog.

four pups , two made good workers , two have bad hips.

you get the best of the best  bits but worst of the worst .

im no expert but that’s how it was for me

ATB Tony

Edited by TonyT
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1 hour ago, Locked on said:

What do lads do to carry on from father daughter mating ? Outcross ? 

I did that mating recently, in the ideal world my next step is to put a different dog on the bitch for her next litter, and use a pup from each litter over each other going forward, few years down the line yet of course.

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On 15/04/2023 at 13:45, steve t said:

I see dogmandont and foxdropper having a wee spat about line breeding in general talk so I thought I'd start a thread here for anyone interested. Now I never started a line but was kindly given 2 older bitches and a bitch pup from my mate who kept this particular line for years. Great I thought as both older bitches were top class and had bred good pups in the past so when they came in season I promptly done repeat matings of what had produced before, all I had to do now was wait and I'd have a kennel full of workers.              What a disappointment the pups were shit and only a couple of workers out the 2 litters. Back to the drawing board I then tried 2 outcrosses to different lines, one all pups worked the other was crap with only one pup working.       Now I'm very obsessive so in the meantime I'd been studying what was working for others in this line and decided to breed back as much as I could to a certain bitch that was a great producer. By now my original bitch pup had proven herself and she carried a couple of lines back to the producing bitch and I was then lucky enough to get 2 old dogs straight out the old producer , half brothers to the original dog I used.                                                  I put one of these old dogs on my bitch and it clicked, all pups worked. The old dog then died but I was able to use his brother twice before he died with very good results. I keep nearly all bitches and found uncle niece and half  brother sister to work well although they were actually much closer than that.                                                              Faults. Some crap dogs that wouldn't work  especially in the early stages. Some very undershot, hip dysplasia in a couple and a few naval hernias.                  I think to keep a line going you need to be obsessive stubborn and have plenty kennel space.

Think you’ll find was @stopend in his annual visit to the site to talk the same shite .Mans a liar ,loud mouth and despised by his countrymen yet is supposed to be the face of terrierwork over there .No wonder games f****d .

 

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22 minutes ago, steve t said:

Apologies to dogmandont then. I remember your thread about line breeding thought it was excellent. I'd like to hear how others have gone about it to.

Thank you for the kind words .Great thread .

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Sounds like you've a fair idea of things as is Steve. Reckon you need 2 lifetimes to get a proper grasp of line breeding... Just when you think you've cracked it, you're thrown a curve ball. I don't care who you are, no-one is an expert! I've been around and dug with some of the greats. And although great terriermen, they made mistakes and didn't get it right just like everyone else. I agree all good dog men have to be obsessed and live for terrierwork. What I would say is and this is just my opinion and like everyone else I'm no expert. You need to know the breeding behind your line, the good and the bad! Keep it tight and in the family while things are going well. Every line will eventually run into difficulty. When it does, you need to recognise it and not be afraid to use an outcross. (Plenty of worker to worker filling kennels out there lol..) Wether it's a complete outcross or a  partial one depends on how tight and how much trouble you're line is in. And obviously good working dogs with good stuff behind them. What works fold back into your original line, what doesn't discard and move on. You may need to use several successful outcrosses to give you further options and freedom to move, all the while folding it back in... While breeding is very important, "Producers" with said breeding is all important. And better again Producers with breeding that also have very good siblings themselves...of course it's not an ideal world and everyone can only be honest with themselves regarding their own stock and others & do their best accordingly....Just my opinion.

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On 16/04/2023 at 21:06, Evil knievil said:

Sounds like you've a fair idea of things as is Steve. Reckon you need 2 lifetimes to get a proper grasp of line breeding... Just when you think you've cracked it, you're thrown a curve ball. I don't care who you are, no-one is an expert! I've been around and dug with some of the greats. And although great terriermen, they made mistakes and didn't get it right just like everyone else. I agree all good dog men have to be obsessed and live for terrierwork. What I would say is and this is just my opinion and like everyone else I'm no expert. You need to know the breeding behind your line, the good and the bad! Keep it tight and in the family while things are going well. Every line will eventually run into difficulty. When it does, you need to recognise it and not be afraid to use an outcross. (Plenty of worker to worker filling kennels out there lol..) Wether it's a complete outcross or a  partial one depends on how tight and how much trouble you're line is in. And obviously good working dogs with good stuff behind them. What works fold back into your original line, what doesn't discard and move on. You may need to use several successful outcrosses to give you further options and freedom to move, all the while folding it back in... While breeding is very important, "Producers" with said breeding is all important. And better again Producers with breeding that also have very good siblings themselves...of course it's not an ideal world and everyone can only be honest with themselves regarding their own stock and others & do their best accordingly....Just my opinion.

Excellent post...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by stop.end
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Done bro/sis and father/daughter matings got results out them didnt get big numbers in the litters but got decent dogs that know there job from the off. Last litter have 2 young dogs coming on 12months were dog from father/daughter mating back to his mother and they both half bro/sis 2 tidy size dogs from that same again 3 on tge litter 2 died.

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