Jump to content

Sheep Issue


Recommended Posts

11 minutes ago, sandymere said:

Alas no, its a valid study, not popular but valid so can't blame the Dingoes if your Kelpie goes off on one with the sheep lol.. interesting the Dingo has links to the Scandinavian wolf. 

"There is little or no evidence in the present data to support a history of significant introgression of Dingo into either Kelpie variety. The Dingo and domestic Kelpie populations have different segregation of yellow/ginger coat color (Kelpie via MC1R while Dingo via ASIP) (Table 2). The populations also have different alleles at MITF, RALY, and MSRB3. The Dingo variant at MITF (11C10A2G12A) has been previously described as being observed in a Scandinavian wolf."

I don’t buy that.
ince all dogs have a common wolf ancestor and since the dingo probably once was at least a proto-dog the observation of scandinavian wolf genes is rather uninteresting.
All in all I do not like the study design of the linked paper.

  • Like 1
Link to post

  • Replies 157
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Anyone who says they have never had a hunting dog have a funny moment of some kind with sheep is probably telling porkies. Having a dog which isn’t at all stock broken, may work for some folk, bu

Yes, time moves on, and at this juncture, I reckon we have reached a pinnacle as regards getting what we want, from the Wild Canids.. Our Sheepdogs are superb, our racing and coursing dogs are amazing

My dogs bushing around sheep happens daily ,and Id admit that at one time or another, each pup has at some stage thought to add sheep/lambs to their  hit list .I expect it .I own my own sheep and norm

Posted Images

14 minutes ago, MagyarAgar said:

I don’t buy that.
ince all dogs have a common wolf ancestor and since the dingo probably once was at least a proto-dog the observation of scandinavian wolf genes is rather uninteresting.
All in all I do not like the study design of the linked paper.

Me neither its like some cracker wrote it

  • Haha 2
Link to post
1 hour ago, MagyarAgar said:

I don’t buy that.
ince all dogs have a common wolf ancestor and since the dingo probably once was at least a proto-dog the observation of scandinavian wolf genes is rather uninteresting.
All in all I do not like the study design of the linked paper.

Why?  original proto dogs where not thought to ha been based on Scandinavian decent so where did it come from and as such raises some questions on the history of the Dingo. I find it interesting that if it likely had some northern European ancestors in part, yet it was though to have originated in Asia, it might suggest its ancestors had spread out from its origins to Europe then back to Asia.

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

A scientist studying the origins of dogs suggests they may have been domesticated twice.

As to the study design, it does what it says on the tin, looks at the genetics of the breed so what do you find wrong with the paper?

 

Link to post

Perhaps the genetic influence of the Dingo, amongst the localised herding dogs of the earliest settlers, has now been totally eradicated and is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to give any scientific credence to🤔

Given the stockman's intense dislike, and noted hatred for the wild dog Dingo, I doubt any such mating, either by accident or design, would ever receive nationwide publicity...however, it would be a ridiculous premise to suggest that amongst the vast wilderness of outback Australasia, that no such couplings twixt Collie and Dingo, ever took place 😉

Scientific data is always fascinating and the wise and considered words and findings of educated men, should never be ignored,..by the same token,.. the 'gut feeling' of many hands on , working stockmen is also worth listening to....

Personally, I believe the modern kelpie is now very cleverly bred, and the bloodlines are recorded for all to see. 

We have the finished product,.. one of the most superlative types of herding canine in the world,..so there would be no need to ever go looking for some wild dog to put into the mix.  

Things are not always what they seem..🤔.

In much the same way as the contemporary, Hard Blood  , non-ped Racing Whippet..

At first, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was added, and played a big part in improving the type, but nowadays, that true grit influence, is no longer required. In fact, in many specimens of these fiery speedsters, it would seem to be an unlikely occurrence,.. but in truth, it most definitely happened... 

Anyway,...Life moves on...eh👍

Good discussion lads,...many thanks...regards, OldPhil.🙏

 

Edited by OldPhil
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2
Link to post

I can't find any info online about this but I was told by a lady who kept dingoes the main difference between them and domestic dogs is that the dingo has a wider head than chest, no domestic breed has this. I think it was how she knew the difference between pure dingo and feral dog crosses.

  • Like 1
Link to post
13 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Perhaps the genetic influence of the Dingo, amongst the localised herding dogs of the earliest settlers, has now been totally eradicated and is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to give any scientific credence to🤔

Given the stockman's intense dislike, and noted hatred for the wild dog Dingo, I doubt any such mating, either by accident or design, would ever receive nationwide publicity...however, it would be a ridiculous premise to suggest that amongst the vast wilderness of outback Australasia, that no such couplings twixt Collie and Dingo, ever took place 😉

Scientific data is always fascinating and the wise and considered words and findings of educated men, should never be ignored,..by the same token,.. the 'gut feeling' of many hands on , working stockmen is also worth listening to....

Personally, I believe the modern kelpie is now very cleverly bred, and the bloodlines are recorded for all to see. 

We have the finished product,.. one of the most superlative types of herding canine in the world,..so there would be no need to ever go looking for some wild dog to put into the mix.  

Things are not always what they seem..🤔.

In much the same way as the contemporary, Hard Blood  , non-ped Racing Whippet..

At first, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was added, and played a big part in improving the type, but nowadays, that true grit influence, is no longer required. In fact, in many specimens of these fiery speedsters, it would seem to be an unlikely occurrence,.. but in truth, it most definitely happened... 

Anyway,...Life moves on...eh👍

Good discussion lads,...many thanks...regards, OldPhil.🙏

 

It's very rare the staffy blood rears its head in non-peds these days, but it must be a tough old gene as it periodically happens.

I had two non-peds that looked like racy staffies back in the '70's, both extremely well bred, one sired by R.Ch Haymaker, and one sired by the great scratch dog Red Baron.

The former never looked like making the grade and was given to a mate and made a good ferreting and rabbiting dog.

The latter was extremely fast and won me a few money matches, but was injury prone.

A friend bred a litter from a top non-ped stud dog and a Greyhound bitch around ten years ago. The whole litter made the grade, bar one, which looked exactly like that "double muscled " Whippet picture that pops up now and again, and had a very strange running style, almost running sideways! It suffered from a lot of muscle injuries and was put down.

There used to be a few that had broken coats, from the Bedlington influence, but I've never seen any like that for many years.

Cheers.

  • Like 1
Link to post
14 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Perhaps the genetic influence of the Dingo, amongst the localised herding dogs of the earliest settlers, has now been totally eradicated and is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to give any scientific credence to🤔

If it was there it would likely be found, consider they found a unexpected wolf ancestor from pre Dingo ancestors, thousands of years in the past but not a Dingo from relatively recent years in the Kelpies....

In science one should never say never and there could possible be Dingo in Australian herding dogs as a whole but if so it would be so tiny an amount to have no effect on the genetic outcomes/makeup of individual dogs. Perhaps future techniques will show something different but for now all the evidence in the genetic make up is negative so we are left with unsupported claims versus well supported science.

In these cases, as ever follow, the science.

Link to post
16 hours ago, sandymere said:

Why?  original proto dogs where not thought to ha been based on Scandinavian decent so where did it come from and as such raises some questions on the history of the Dingo. I find it interesting that if it likely had some northern European ancestors in part, yet it was though to have originated in Asia, it might suggest its ancestors had spread out from its origins to Europe then back to Asia.

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

A scientist studying the origins of dogs suggests they may have been domesticated twice.

As to the study design, it does what it says on the tin, looks at the genetics of the breed so what do you find wrong with the paper?

 

Because they just look at some single loci. That’s just not enough. And proto-dogs probably already migrated with us all over the world so it is hardly surprising to find scandinavian wolf genes in Dingos.

  • Like 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, Aussie Whip said:

I can't find any info online about this but I was told by a lady who kept dingoes the main difference between them and domestic dogs is that the dingo has a wider head than chest, no domestic breed has this. I think it was how she knew the difference between pure dingo and feral dog crosses.

These methods seem to be highly inaccurate and super subjective. As far as I have read.

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, sandymere said:

If it was there it would likely be found, consider they found a unexpected wolf ancestor from pre Dingo ancestors, thousands of years in the past but not a Dingo from relatively recent years in the Kelpies....

In science one should never say never and there could possible be Dingo in Australian herding dogs as a whole but if so it would be so tiny an amount to have no effect on the genetic outcomes/makeup of individual dogs. Perhaps future techniques will show something different but for now all the evidence in the genetic make up is negative so we are left with unsupported claims versus well supported science.

In these cases, as ever follow, the science.

That’s just not true. It is not all the evidence that points into this direction. There are studies that show an influence. And as I have posted before it is really hard to do proper genetic testing because we are hard pressed to find „real“ dingos that did not hybridize in the past. What I say is, that the hypothesis is wrong, since you are genetically comparing dingo dog hybrids (feral) with dingo dog hybrids (kelpie). And thats a problem we have in science, if your hypothesis is flawed than your experiment is basically worthless.

And as OldPhil said we see the finished product today and if there was some dingo influence it probably had some effects that were desirable and further reinforced by proper breeding.

Link to post
43 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

We now have an obsession with the ‘wild’ in our domestic animals. But for a very very long time we wanted nothing to do with it. People forget that. 

1 of mine 80 percent wild 

Link to post

Yes, time moves on, and at this juncture, I reckon we have reached a pinnacle as regards getting what we want, from the Wild Canids.. Our Sheepdogs are superb, our racing and coursing dogs are amazing, and even the diminutive dirt dawgs have been bred to go deep, if needed😉 and,.. feck me, even our working ferrets are top notch👏

The hunting life , as  we know it in the UK, is destined to change,...and its a crying shame that just when the breeders finally created something really special,.. the laws of the land will dictate, that such phenomenally unique animals, can no longer be used... 

Obviously, certain breeds and types will remain,...sheep have to be handled, and noxious pests that are a threat to human health, will always need to be controlled, but basically,...the future does not look bright...🤔

As an aside,...I remember breeding a litter of ACD x Greyhounds,. back in the mid 1980's ..

I've bred a fair few litters of roustabout running dogs,.. hardly on a commercial basis, but a fair few...

This particular litter of eight dogs and two bitches, really were different to anything that I have ever seen...

They were ultra aggressive to strangers, even at an early age, and whilst in no way shy or spooky, they were amazingly suspicious of anything new or alien to them...I once saw the entire litter attack a length of rubber garden hose in the manner of wild dogs, killing a snake...To be honest, one could write a quite extensive article on the behavioural patterns of these strange lurcher hybrids...Their linage was Australian Cattle Dog on the top side,.. and I would be astonished if there was no Dingo genes lurking around, in the back ground somewhere, however distantly removed😉

Go careful now lads,...all the best, OldPhil.🙏

 

 

 

 

Edited by OldPhil
  • Like 10
Link to post
4 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Yes, time moves on, and at this juncture, I reckon we have reached a pinnacle as regards getting what we want, from the Wild Canids.. Our Sheepdogs are superb, our racing and coursing dogs are amazing, and even the diminutive dirt dawgs have been bred to go deep, if needed😉 and,.. feck me, even our working ferrets are top notch👏

The hunting life , as  we know it in the UK, is destined to change,...and its a crying shame that just when the breeders finally created something really special,.. the laws of the land will dictate, that such phenomenally unique animals, can no longer be used... 

Obviously, certain breeds and types will remain,...sheep have to be handled, and noxious pests that are a threat to human health, will always need to be controlled, but basically,...the future does not look bright...🤔

As an aside,...I remember breeding a litter of ACD x Greyhounds,. back in the mid 1980's ..

I've bred a fair few litters of roustabout running dogs,.. hardly on a commercial basis, but a fair few...

This particular litter of eight dogs and two bitches, really were different to anything that I have ever seen...

They were ultra aggressive to strangers, even at an early age, and whilst in no way shy or spooky, they were amazingly suspicious of anything new or alien to them...I once saw the entire litter attack a length of rubber garden hose in the manner of wild dogs, killing a snake...To be honest, one could write a quite extensive article on the behavioural patterns of these strange lurcher hybrids...Their linage was Australian Cattle Dog on the top side,.. and I would be astonished if there was no Dingo genes lurking around, in the back ground somewhere, however distantly removed😉

Go careful now lads,...all the best, OldPhil.🙏

 

 

Filep0028.jpg

Were them the ones that caught and retrieved a spandex clad jogger

  • Haha 1
Link to post
7 hours ago, SheepChaser said:

We now have an obsession with the ‘wild’ in our domestic animals. But for a very very long time we wanted nothing to do with it. People forget that. 

Indeed the very reason we have dogs is because they are better than their wild ancestors.

Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...