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Origins of the black dogs


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So the big names in the terrier world such as bn, jp, ac etc etc are said to of started their lines off with buck and or breay stuff but obviously went off on their own routes depending on what suited them, and then people acquired their stuff and so on and so forth. But are we to belive that buck and breay where the only ones with black terriers that could hold the torch or were their others about who should perhaps get some recognition. And if they were the only two worth mentioning where did their dogs come from. 

I'm bored and waiting for the season to start so feel free to argue, I need some fun

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J.Park with his line bred Breay stock , influences of both border and bull,  mid 70's I think  In 1850s a high sheriff bought a black broken coated bull + terrier from london and took it to the l

Where ever they orignated from the black uns are terrier mans dream in the right hands and a peddlers dream on the otherside of the coin 

The old guys must be pissing themselves  laughing that anyone actually cares. can you dig to the dog ? that is what matters to terrier men surely. ATB T

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I don't think that any new information, if the facts differ from what is generally accepted and has been recorded in print as to the origin of the type, will ever arise as the people that it concerns are either dead or not interested in rewriting the history books. Just my opinion. Never been involved with the type other than seeing other people's dogs. 

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1 hour ago, timmy k said:

So the big names in the terrier world such as bn, jp, ac etc etc are said to of started their lines off with buck and or breay stuff but obviously went off on their own routes depending on what suited them, and then people acquired their stuff and so on and so forth. But are we to belive that buck and breay where the only ones with black terriers that could hold the torch or were their others about who should perhaps get some recognition. And if they were the only two worth mentioning where did their dogs come from. 

I'm bored and waiting for the season to start so feel free to argue, I need some fun

There are those that say a splash of bull blood separated the ‘Black type ‘ from the Lakeland ….. and That the chocolate blacks started with a cocker spaniel 

no new info I’m afraid 

 

ATB … T

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Fascinating to read the history of working dogs but it just leads to a massive headache.

It's not as simple as a march of progress illustration IMO.

What we can all agree on is the massive influence the black un's have had in the terrier world.

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It is something that I find interesting. We had established and proven types of working terriers but then, in the mid 20th century a different type emerged, from somewhere and something (?), that proved to be better than those that existed previously. A finely bred family of terriers that just happened to stand out because they tended to be black and had a bull type look or something more? The most certainly became popular at the end of the 20th century that's for sure.

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I can guarantee you frank buck used a border terrier dog from Ron hodgson back in the day,Ron did have the dog it sired of franks and date.But Ron has passed away now but I remember him and his wife telling me the story years ago.But frank wouldn’t say anything about it.

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3 minutes ago, eastcoast said:

It is something that I find interesting. We had established and proven types of working terriers but then, in the mid 20th century a different type emerged, from somewhere and something (?), that proved to be better than those that existed previously. A finely bred family of terriers that just happened to stand out because they tended to be black and had a bull type look or something more? The most certainly became popular at the end of the 20th century that's for sure.

Maybe someone crossed a staffy with a Lakeland 🤔

and then a charlatan school teacher tried to make a wage out of it. Interviewed a few genuine guys, pretended he did the same , and invented the ‘Russel Cross’.

ATB T

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Just now, TonyT said:

Maybe someone crossed a staffy with a Lakeland 🤔

and then a charlatan school teacher tried to make a wage out of it. Interviewed a few genuine guys, pretended he did the same , and invented the ‘Russel Cross’.

ATB T

Rumours are Nuttall's grandfather bred his working terriers with pit dogs of that area.

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The type was around in the Mid 1800's as a chocolate type, Breay /Buck type changed in the 1950s, C.Breay brought in a new brood bitch a very hard chocolate coloured terrier that produced black terriers with the bull type head .... choc bitch probs a bull cross 

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3 hours ago, timmy k said:

So the big names in the terrier world such as bn, jp, ac etc etc are said to of started their lines off with buck and or breay stuff but obviously went off on their own routes depending on what suited them, and then people acquired their stuff and so on and so forth. But are we to belive that buck and breay where the only ones with black terriers that could hold the torch or were their others about who should perhaps get some recognition. And if they were the only two worth mentioning where did their dogs come from. 

I'm bored and waiting for the season to start so feel free to argue, I need some fun

Not a black dog man...but if it's one thing I know, there's plenty unknown and uncredited men out there with lines as good as any, that avoid the lime light without whom terrier strains of all colors would not exist today and long may they last..

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3 minutes ago, Glyn..... said:

The type was around in the Mid 1800's as a chocolate type, Breay /Buck type changed in the 1950s, C.Breay brought in a new brood bitch a very hard chocolate coloured terrier that produced black terriers with the bull type head .... choc bitch probs a bull cross 

I’ve learnt something there 👍

ATB … T

 

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There's been black un's for donkeys years, just look at the fell types.

My guess though is that the smooth coated Nuttall type are a relatively modern type whereby he or his grandfather crossed pit dogs/bull types with the fell types.

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