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what came 1st the grey wolf or the dog?


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We used to fly loads of animals from Southern Africa to the Middle East for zoos and private collectors, and this included African wild dogs, which some are trying to rename as "painted wolves".

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Bosun11 and Chartpolski: the only reason I call them painted wolves is because it's less characters so quicker to type.😁

I always used to call them Cape hunting dogs as that's what they were called in the Jane Goodall and Hugo Van Lawick book I have but then, years later, I heard them referred to as painted wolves as it's the translation of their latin name. I swapped to that as nobody seemed to know what I meant when the said the former. I think they thought I meant an actual dog breed.

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23 minutes ago, Neal said:

Bosun11 and Chartpolski: the only reason I call them painted wolves is because it's less characters so quicker to type.😁

I always used to call them Cape hunting dogs as that's what they were called in the Jane Goodall and Hugo Van Lawick book I have but then, years later, I heard them referred to as painted wolves as it's the translation of their latin name. I swapped to that as nobody seemed to know what I meant when the said the former. I think they thought I meant an actual dog breed.

The names are confusing; I think they are more "dog" than "wolf, but "Cape Hunting Dog" gives the impression they are a breed of domesticated hunting dog, and "African Wild Dog" is a bit all encompassing as there is also the pariah dogs and feral dogs.

I was told that some are trying to get "Painted Wolf" as the official name, as it sounds more "exotic" and acceptable, than the other names, but who knows ?

Cheers.

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30 minutes ago, Neal said:

Bosun11 and Chartpolski: the only reason I call them painted wolves is because it's less characters so quicker to type.😁

I always used to call them Cape hunting dogs as that's what they were called in the Jane Goodall and Hugo Van Lawick book I have but then, years later, I heard them referred to as painted wolves as it's the translation of their latin name. I swapped to that as nobody seemed to know what I meant when the said the former. I think they thought I meant an actual dog breed.

Painted wolves sounds loads cooler than Cape hunting doges

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As foxes are self domesticating in our cities today, it would appear that living close to humans brings on " natural domestication" so the early wolf/dogs likely underwent the same process and from there were easier to become fully domestic when the time was right.

WWW.SCIENCEMAG.ORG

City living may have set the animals on the road to doglike features

 

 

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On 09/08/2021 at 19:35, sandymere said:

As foxes are self domesticating in our cities today, it would appear that living close to humans brings on " natural domestication" so the early wolf/dogs likely underwent the same process and from there were easier to become fully domestic when the time was right.

WWW.SCIENCEMAG.ORG

City living may have set the animals on the road to doglike features

 

 

The social element of the hunt is what made the wolf become the dog, 

Foxes , raccoons , rats , cats you name have lived in or around humans for ever but it wont made them as social as the dog, 

they use the word “may”because they can’t figure out what the f**k is going on , living in close proximity,  feeding in dumps, from garbage all that shite wild animals do now , won’t make them domesticated , take the bear for instance, is it on the way to domestication too ? Not a chance,  the less fear it has , the more dangerous the f****r is 

the wolf became the dog  because the pack was needed  to take down big prey, they had to cooperate , the social element was needed for survival,

the dog at his very heart is born wild, the more you let a dog express its natural behaviour through the hunt , the more social he becomes 

you can take a dog into any environment and it won’t break down into instinctive behaviour which is fear based, try putting another animal on a lead and dragging round a busy high street and you quickly find out where the line lies between social and instinctive behaviour 

the simple act of physical movement,  aligning oneself with the dog on a regular basis, enough to develop a long lasting social bond with your dog, food is just an added bonus, 


Put it this way , if you missus always fed the dogs  at home, really friendly with them , got on great with them , listened to her , behaved well for her all that shite , etc 

Once those dogs are out in a hunting environment, suddenly , you went one way and the missus went another,  who would  the dogs follow,

the one who represents food or the one who represents freedom and natural behaviour ? 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Casso said:

The social element of the hunt is what made the wolf become the dog, 

Foxes , raccoons , rats , cats you name have lived in or around humans for ever but it wont made them as social as the dog, 

they use the word “may”because they can’t figure out what the f**k is going on , living in close proximity,  feeding in dumps, from garbage all that shite wild animals do now , won’t make them domesticated , take the bear for instance, is it on the way to domestication too ? Not a chance,  the less fear it has , the more dangerous the f****r is 

the wolf became the dog  because the pack was needed  to take down big prey, they had to cooperate , the social element was needed for survival,

the dog at his very heart is born wild, the more you let a dog express its natural behaviour through the hunt , the more social he becomes 

you can take a dog into any environment and it won’t break down into instinctive behaviour which is fear based, try putting another animal on a lead and dragging round a busy high street and you quickly find out where the line lies between social and instinctive behaviour 

the simple act of physical movement,  aligning oneself with the dog on a regular basis, enough to develop a long lasting social bond with your dog, food is just an added bonus, 


Put it this way , if you missus always fed the dogs  at home, really friendly with them , got on great with them , listened to her , behaved well for her all that shite , etc 

Once those dogs are out in a hunting environment, suddenly , you went one way and the missus went another,  who would  the dogs follow,

the one who represents food or the one who represents freedom and natural behaviour ? 

 

 

Hello mate

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6 hours ago, Casso said:

The social element of the hunt is what made the wolf become the dog, 

Foxes , raccoons , rats , cats you name have lived in or around humans for ever but it wont made them as social as the dog, 

they use the word “may”because they can’t figure out what the f**k is going on , living in close proximity,  feeding in dumps, from garbage all that shite wild animals do now , won’t make them domesticated , take the bear for instance, is it on the way to domestication too ? Not a chance,  the less fear it has , the more dangerous the f****r is 

the wolf became the dog  because the pack was needed  to take down big prey, they had to cooperate , the social element was needed for survival,

the dog at his very heart is born wild, the more you let a dog express its natural behaviour through the hunt , the more social he becomes 

you can take a dog into any environment and it won’t break down into instinctive behaviour which is fear based, try putting another animal on a lead and dragging round a busy high street and you quickly find out where the line lies between social and instinctive behaviour 

the simple act of physical movement,  aligning oneself with the dog on a regular basis, enough to develop a long lasting social bond with your dog, food is just an added bonus, 


Put it this way , if you missus always fed the dogs  at home, really friendly with them , got on great with them , listened to her , behaved well for her all that shite , etc 

Once those dogs are out in a hunting environment, suddenly , you went one way and the missus went another,  who would  the dogs follow,

the one who represents food or the one who represents freedom and natural behaviour ? 

 

 

Great post.

Most interesting to me is the misses feeding the dog but who would it follow in the field?

I would add, even if the dog follows you why does it hunt for you? Some don't of course. By hunting for you I mean even when the heat is on responding to instruction and depending on what you are hunting, once caught bring it in or hold it rather than trying to eat it. 

The willingness to please. That's the bit I find fascinating. 

 

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16 hours ago, eastcoast said:

Great post.

Most interesting to me is the misses feeding the dog but who would it follow in the field?

I would add, even if the dog follows you why does it hunt for you? Some don't of course. By hunting for you I mean even when the heat is on responding to instruction and depending on what you are hunting, once caught bring it in or hold it rather than trying to eat it. 

The willingness to please. That's the bit I find fascinating. 

 

I'm sure John Holmes said something similar about that i.e. all the pups he bred followed his wife as she fed them all, but as soon as they started training/working them then the ones trained by him followed him whereas the ones trained by his wife would follow her.

I've always found with my kelpies that I'll only have one retriever in the pack when they're working. Whoever caught anything it was always Rusty who'd "politely ask them for it" and then bring it back to me. Once he died Noggin took over as the retriever. However, if I'm not working all of them then another dog will take over the role...apart from Scout who'd nip off and find a nice quiet spot to eat whatever she'd caught as quickly as possible.

It was similar with the catch, although Rusty had caught several rats and squirrels he didn't catch his first rabbit until he was almost five...just a few days after my lurcher was rehomed. And Amber caught one at exactly the same moment in the opposite corner of the same field.

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On 09/08/2021 at 19:35, sandymere said:

As foxes are self domesticating in our cities today, it would appear that living close to humans brings on " natural domestication" so the early wolf/dogs likely underwent the same process and from there were easier to become fully domestic when the time was right.

WWW.SCIENCEMAG.ORG

City living may have set the animals on the road to doglike features

 

 

Foxes are becoming more and more commonplace🤔

See them quite a bit, when I'm out and about...😉

 

Edited by OldPhil
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1 hour ago, OldPhil said:

Foxes are becoming more and more commonplace🤔

See them quite a bit, when I'm out and about...😉

fox 5DSCF0745.tif.jpg

More in the towns less in the countryside. Thermals night vision and rifles doing some serious damage to population in rural areas in my view 🤔

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30 minutes ago, Gypsydog94 said:

More in the towns less in the countryside. Thermals night vision and rifles doing some serious damage to population in rural areas in my view 🤔

I think it was when the ban come in mate straight away there was less fox in rural areas 

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