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what came 1st the grey wolf or the dog?


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1 hour ago, mushroom said:

Fair enough and to clarify, I wasnt calling this thread and/or your posts daft. I meant the debate in general. It will never be proven which, what, where 💁‍♂️

It's like saying birds are related to dinosaurs. Ok which one? We will never know.

What I'd really like to know is why haven't other large social predators been domesticated? Hyenas for example. Surely, if the camp fire theory holds any water. Hyenas would defo want to be around human settlements for the same reason the theory says wolves did.

Read the other day that it may have been us begging and stealing off dogs and not the other way around, makes more sense tbh. 😁

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I once put up a post "Are Pures Really Pure" ? Relating to Deerhounds and Greyhounds. Deerhounds of course had an influx of greyhound blood, sanctioned by the kennel club, ostensibly to prevent t

I watched the Russian one on fox out a 100 you get one that didn’t try hiding or going at you then they took these and line bred them after so many generations they Was tame and with the  tameness the

We used to fly loads of animals from Southern Africa to the Middle East for zoos and private collectors, and this included African wild dogs, which some are trying to rename as "painted wolves".

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34 minutes ago, mushroom said:

Not a bad answer and I probably agree. Still while sticking with your point.... The innate human aggression/avoidance in wolves should also prevent domestication 💁‍♂️

See what I mean about the debate? It just throws so many questions, rather than answers. Wouldn't the more placid/smaller wolf species be the better option? If so why do dogs have grey wolf DNA? How the fuuck did someone have the balls to stroll up to a grey wolf and say "here boy have a meaty bone" 😂

As I remember it we took them as young pups after chasing the parent wolves off wi sticks and shouting a bit

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1 hour ago, Greb147 said:

Read the other day that it may have been us begging and stealing off dogs and not the other way around, makes more sense tbh. 😁

There is precedent. In africa there are tribes that storm lion kills and grab themselves something. But that would make humans a competitor not an ally.

1 hour ago, Black neck said:

As I remember it we took them as young pups after chasing the parent wolves off wi sticks and shouting a bit

Watched a doc a few years ago. A wolf sanctuary somewhere in North America (US or Canada). They would take cubs into their homes from both abondoned wild and from abandoned in the sanctuary. All were un-handalable at 4-5months. Destructive and wild, all had to be reintroduced to the pack at that age.

The best explanation I've seen is the russian fox experiment. Selective breeding of the more desirable animals.

Personally I think it started with camp fire scavenging and went from there. Human species are renowned for being messy cnuts. Which would attract all but the most averse animals in a group.

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17 minutes ago, mushroom said:

There is precedent. In africa there are tribes that storm lion kills and grab themselves something. But that would make humans a competitor not an ally.

Watch a doc a few years ago. A wolf sanctuary somewhere in North America (US or Canada). They would take cubs into their homes from both abondoned wild and from abandoned in the sanctuary. All were un-handalable at 4-5months. Destructive and wild, all had to be reintroduced to the pack at that age.

The best explanation I've seen is the russian fox experiment. Selective breeding of the more desirable animals.

Personally I think it started with camp fire scavenging and went from there. Human species are renowned for being messy cnuts. Which would attract all but the most averse animals in a group.

I thought that were normal for saluki types 

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On 03/08/2021 at 18:44, mushroom said:

Fair enough and to clarify, I wasnt calling this thread and/or your posts daft. I meant the debate in general. It will never be proven which, what, where 💁‍♂️

It's like saying birds are related to dinosaurs. Ok which one? We will never know.

What I'd really like to know is why haven't other large social predators been domesticated? Hyenas for example. Surely, if the camp fire theory holds any water. Hyenas would defo want to be around human settlements for the same reason the theory says wolves did.

I've often wondered this too, especially painted wolves. I read a lot of recent research about both species i.e. painted wolves and timber wolves and I'm amazed by the fact that painted wolves seem much more "dog like" in many ways than timber wolves. 

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We used to fly loads of animals from Southern Africa to the Middle East for zoos and private collectors, and this included African wild dogs, which some are trying to rename as "painted wolves".

I enjoyed talking to the handlers/keepers, and they told me African wild dogs are impossible to tame or domesticate, even if they were hand reared from birth.

Theyve been around for millennia, so seems strange they've never been domesticated, whilst other canines have.

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Cheers.

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7 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

We used to fly loads of animals from Southern Africa to the Middle East for zoos and private collectors, and this included African wild dogs, which some are trying to rename as "painted wolves".

I enjoyed talking to the handlers/keepers, and they told me African wild dogs are impossible to tame or domesticate, even if they were hand reared from birth.

Theyve been around for millennia, so seems strange they've never been domesticated, whilst other canines have.

IMG_1587.JPG.ed7a046961c9e212212207c110f0f8dc.JPG

Cheers.

Exactly my question and point mate.

How can all these side by side social predators not have taken the same path. Or maybe they did and we've been living with wolyenaotes back  bred to a honey badger 😂

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No one ever seems to be able to define exactly what wild canine became the "dog". Modern behavioural research in regard to socialising present wild canines just seems to confound earlier theories. 

I may be getting old and sentimental but the thing that separates a dog from a wild canine, is that incredulous bond between humans and dogs. More so the bond or wiling association with us that they crave.

Even the most abused or even correctly bred and professionally worked dogs instantly respond to bit of affection and kind words that they are not accustomed to. 

Personally I think that it is just a strange quirk of fate that human beings and a once wild animal, now long extinct in the wild, developed this symbiotic relationship. 

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On 03/08/2021 at 20:22, mushroom said:

There is precedent. In africa there are tribes that storm lion kills and grab themselves something. But that would make humans a competitor not an ally.

Watched a doc a few years ago. A wolf sanctuary somewhere in North America (US or Canada). They would take cubs into their homes from both abondoned wild and from abandoned in the sanctuary. All were un-handalable at 4-5months. Destructive and wild, all had to be reintroduced to the pack at that age.

The best explanation I've seen is the russian fox experiment. Selective breeding of the more desirable animals.

Personally I think it started with camp fire scavenging and went from there. Human species are renowned for being messy cnuts. Which would attract all but the most averse animals in a group.

I watched the Russian one on fox out a 100 you get one that didn’t try hiding or going at you then they took these and line bred them after so many generations they Was tame and with the  tameness they started changing colour 

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I don't think its any quirk of fate, nor do i see any answers looking at Cape Hunting dogs (are they still called that?) And most importantly the wolf (in any form) is a wolf and has never been domesticated (nor should it ever be!) In my opinion our dogs and wolves are two seperate branches of the same tree. The 'quirk' is that our dogs ancesters were less human agressive and that is the crux. We exploited that...

Like the domesticated cat, i believe we took our pet/hunting companion from litters born wild. We didn't bond, we took and used...

Sure they 'may' have hung round our campfires for scraps but we didn't bond with 'steely eyes across flickering flames' and all that romantic shite... I think one of the main reasons we used them was for both an alarm and a decoy, as much as a hunter.

We took pups, from wild dogs... Dogs we got to learn a bit about, from them hanging round our camps for scraps and, when there was none for them to scavenge, watching them hunt. And so when we were attacked by other animals, those mutts raised the alarm and were first to the action, saving us valuable time..!!

Unlike with the wolf or Cape dogs, our dogs ancesters knew us, we stole from them, they stole from us, for thousands of years but we seen the potential and stole pups to help feed and protect ourselves... But they were disposable..!!

We really need to get away from all that romance and realise we took all our pets and domestic animals with force.

We took the ones we knew we could work with, the ones that were easy and the rest stayed wild...

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34 minutes ago, Bosun11 said:

I don't think its any quirk of fate, nor do i see any answers looking at Cape Hunting dogs (are they still called that?) And most importantly the wolf (in any form) is a wolf and has never been domesticated (nor should it ever be!)

Like the domesticated cat, i believe we took our pet/hunting companion from litters born wild. We didn't bond, we took and used...

Sure they 'may' have hung round our campfires for scraps but we didn't bond with 'steely eyes across flickering flames' and all that romantic shite... I think one of the main reasons we used them was for both an alarm and a decoy, as much as a hunter.

We took pups, from wild dogs... Dogs we got to learn a bit about, from them hanging round our camps for scraps and, when there was none for them to scavenge, watching them hunt. And so when we were attacked by other animals, those mutts raised the alarm and were first to the action, saving us valuable time..!!

Unlike with the wolf or Cape dogs, our dogs ancesters knew us, we stole from them, they stole from us, for thousands of years but we seen the potential and stole pups to help feed and protect ourselves... But they were disposable..!!

We really need to get away from all that romance and realise we took all our pets and domestic animals with force.

We took the ones we knew we could work with, the ones that were easy and the rest stayed wild...

Proove me wrong... 😁

great reasoning mate . 

I think that resonance possibly shows itself in the retalicant nature Of some of the most primal of dogs .
 

Look at the average saluki , I actually hate it when people call them thick , they certainly can test you 😂😂 but I think they have evolved slowly , glacially , they aren’t the sit stay move find bite snap hold companion that a springer or a mallnois are . But they have changed imperceptibly from biblical times accompanying nomads and sheiks alike into the hunting field . 
 

does that imbued sense of economy , that drifting away stares  of something is going to happen , that infamous stamina ? Does it come from a jackal ancestor more centralised to that desert locale ? It’s doesn’t really take that much of an imagine stretch to pull that muzzle out , lengthen them limbs , lower that rib cage , especially to those small scuffy rough ones that crop up from time to time . 
 

interesting all These geneolgy theories aren’t they ? 
 

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1 hour ago, mC HULL said:

I watched the Russian one on fox out a 100 you get one that didn’t try hiding or going at you then they took these and line bred them after so many generations they Was tame and with the  tameness they started changing colour 

I saw something like that about a fur farm and all they were whining about was the tame, colored foxes not being worth much. If they wat a proper fox go out and catch one the lazy c's, lol.

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I remember years ago as a kid I had this great book of dogs , I had a few , the Collins one was my favourite but this other one was the daddy , it had every dog breed you can imagine , tasys , eastern steppe hounds , field spaniels , blue heelers , all the breeds no other book I had listed but one breed stood out on the illustrated pallet inserts by its description. 

the Karelian bear dog.  

its description stuck with me . 

“the Karelian bear dog must be kept in a pack environment if possible , as it has less evolved domestic traits than almost any other dog breed”

Stick with me that , not a direct quote but words there of . 

I know it’s a spitz etc but tell me that isn’t a million year away from a wolf , I genuinely think that’s not Far from what the first dogs resembled 
 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bosun11 said:

I don't think its any quirk of fate, nor do i see any answers looking at Cape Hunting dogs (are they still called that?) And most importantly the wolf (in any form) is a wolf and has never been domesticated (nor should it ever be!) In my opinion our dogs and wolves are two seperate branches of the same tree. The 'quirk' is that our dogs ancesters were less human agressive and that is the crux. We exploited that...

Like the domesticated cat, i believe we took our pet/hunting companion from litters born wild. We didn't bond, we took and used...

Sure they 'may' have hung round our campfires for scraps but we didn't bond with 'steely eyes across flickering flames' and all that romantic shite... I think one of the main reasons we used them was for both an alarm and a decoy, as much as a hunter.

We took pups, from wild dogs... Dogs we got to learn a bit about, from them hanging round our camps for scraps and, when there was none for them to scavenge, watching them hunt. And so when we were attacked by other animals, those mutts raised the alarm and were first to the action, saving us valuable time..!!

Unlike with the wolf or Cape dogs, our dogs ancesters knew us, we stole from them, they stole from us, for thousands of years but we seen the potential and stole pups to help feed and protect ourselves... But they were disposable..!!

We really need to get away from all that romance and realise we took all our pets and domestic animals with force.

We took the ones we knew we could work with, the ones that were easy and the rest stayed wild...

Proove me wrong... 😁

👍

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