Springer spaniel lines

[SheepChaser 8,082]

3 hours ago, Balaur said:

I like that, got a number?...but in seriousness there's normally a dog or two on a shoot and everyone knows they're the real deal even if it's never said. Whether only obedient one or good at job or superb on woodcock etc...my favourite ever.dog was a real barrel cocker, black in colour that would do a full day (rested between drives) on the river, just an honest grafter belonged to a modest rough and ready chap. 

Very very true!

[Born Hunter 17,622]

10 minutes ago, shaaark said:

Mad that really. My old man's ex neighbour used to own a really racy springer dog, about 19-20" tts, never worked, but I was busting to try him lol,  and an ex mate of mine used to own a racy cocker bitch of no more than about 14.5" tts lol.

Like you say though, to me, a spaniel is a spaniel. And as I get older, they are appealing to me more than a running dog, for work.

Tried a lurcher, had some fun, but not sure they suit me.

9 minutes ago, shaaark said:

That your dog B H?

Yes mate.

[shaaark 10,112]

1 minute ago, Born Hunter said:

Tried a lurcher, had some fun, but not sure they suit me.

Yes mate.

A bit nuts really lol. Years ago, and I'm talking about 1980, a mate of my old man's that owned a welsh and english springer, just for rabbiting , told me when I bumped into him one mornining, with said dogs, when I was out with my whippet and lurcher, 'you're using the wrong dogs for round ere'.

It was about 8 am, and he'd already caught 3 rabbits, no ferrets, and I had none.

Didn't really think too much about it really, til maybe the last few years. He was completely correct lol.

[scottpenn28 244]

On 12/11/2020 at 19:47, jessdale said:

A well bred trial line will do absolutely everything any other line will do. All this “45mins” talk is total nonsense. A fit dog can work, a unfit dog cannot. Gundogs don’t work “all day”, that’s another load of nonsense. What did you think of the poolgreen and sugarbullet dogs ?

I have no doubt they will do everything and more I require, just personal preference that I'd like a bigger "old type" like the springers i used to have. The sire to my wcs is a sugarbullet gundog and I personally really like that line. Poolgreen really speaks for itself since Will Clulee has trained so many champion dogs if he had the type of springer I wanted id absolutely be trying to contact him. Same with sugarbullet also, but both are trialling men and have smaller type springers. I've recently been in contact with a couple of breeders and have been pointed towards SJworkingdogs and grenoffen. Both of which appear to line breed "old heavy type"  springers so fingers crossed by starting there i can find something. 

[scottpenn28 244]

On 13/11/2020 at 07:22, Born Hunter said:

f**k I’m good, king of the internet! 

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/gundog-breeds/givendale-line-english-springer-spaniels-41686

Funnily enough somebody had suggested this article to me so had a read and this is what I'm looking for 

[Born Hunter 17,622]

4 hours ago, scottpenn28 said:

Funnily enough somebody had suggested this article to me so had a read and this is what I'm looking for 

Bit sales pitchy but worth asking around after the stuff I expect to hear other opinions.

[jessdale 416]

I know it’s each person’s own choice of what type of dog they want so I’m not having a go at anyone. If these big heavily marked springers were so good why are they as rare as hens teeth ? Forget trialling dogs for a minute. Surely everyone not into trialling would still have these big heavily marked springers if they were better ? The way I see it is the dogs around now are around because they do the job. Whether it is gundogs/terriers/lurchers/guard dogs it seems everyone wants the old stuff when the dogs we have now are out of the old stuff ! When did old became new ? , it’s the same stuff !

[SheepChaser 8,082]

1 minute ago, jessdale said:

I know it’s each person’s own choice of what type of dog they want so I’m not having a go at anyone. If these big heavily marked springers were so good why are they as rare as hens teeth ? Forget trialling dogs for a minute. Surely everyone not into trialling would still have these big heavily marked springers if they were better ? The way I see it is the dogs around now are around because they do the job. Whether it is gundogs/terriers/lurchers/guard dogs it seems everyone wants the old stuff when the dogs we have now are out of the old stuff ! When did old became new ? , it’s the same stuff !

Fashion. Most folk don’t know what they need, they also don’t know what does the job....... but they know what the fashion is and what looks good and what is said to be good. And they really really want that because if they buy it, it will make them good to. They get it and then don’t really use it, need it or can’t figure out how it works......

Same with most types of dog, in fact most types of thing. 

[jessdale 416]

21 minutes ago, Wideboy said:

Still going strong over here in Ireland. In fact people call them Irish springer spaniels instead of calling them heavy/big ESS. In fact you’d be hard pressed to get anything but. These are out and out woodcock dogs in my area anyways. 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by jessdale
Can’t be Arsed

[scottpenn28 244]

Absolutely agree that the smaller dogs are around and so common for a reason, no doubts at all they still bash bramble and flush birds just as well as more heavy set type and being of a smaller stature no doubts they do it all much quicker. However regardless of trend or fashion or whatever else my original post stated that I had this type of dog when I was younger and that to me is what an ESS is, not saying in any way that the smaller type dogs aren't proper ESS but my personal preference is heavy springers that my family had when we were kids. There are springers in my area that are these big type springers but they are simply pets, the challenging part was the find a working line of this type of springer. I also said that if i couldn't find 1 then yes I would look at the smaller type dogs, and then I would be giving sugarbullet, poolgreen and the other big names a call. This also wouldn't be a problem if I had to have this type of dog as like I said it will still do the job I want it too and probably better.

[Lloyd90 509]

On 13/11/2020 at 18:08, Wideboy said:

The shite they have to go through all day. I’ve been in plenty of shoot in Scotland and a couple in England and none of them where anywhere like rough shooting in Ireland. Dogs have to hunt unforgiving cover over here for woodcock. It’s a lot of hunting for little return. On some days my gundogs can’t open their eyes as they are swollen near shut, their ears are cut to shreds and they can’t rest easy because the pain in their feet from thorns. I have only experienced this in Ireland. I worked my dogs more in UK. 
The grouse moods are hard on a bitches nipples.

No offence taken, this is what I’ve seen with my own two eyes. 

 

They must be some dogs over in Ireland, just from what I seen hunting thick punishing cover with not a lot of reward.

I do have to ask, what they do to train dogs to get inside and hunt that sort of cover, considering they are going in for hours on end with hardly any flush ... 

[Lloyd90 509]

23 minutes ago, Wideboy said:

The dogs soon realise that the game is inside the cover not outside, a few flushes and the penny drops. I never had a problem with them continuously hunting cover. 

 

I've got a trial bred springer, he will smash the hardest cover in the world if he thinks there's game inside, but he won't go in for nothing. I reckon he missed game on days with poor scenting conditions when he can't smell if there's a bird inside cover or if the area of cover is massive. 

 

 

 

 

[Lloyd90 509]

On 28/11/2020 at 14:44, jessdale said:

I know it’s each person’s own choice of what type of dog they want so I’m not having a go at anyone. If these big heavily marked springers were so good why are they as rare as hens teeth ? Forget trialling dogs for a minute. Surely everyone not into trialling would still have these big heavily marked springers if they were better ? The way I see it is the dogs around now are around because they do the job. Whether it is gundogs/terriers/lurchers/guard dogs it seems everyone wants the old stuff when the dogs we have now are out of the old stuff ! When did old became new ? , it’s the same stuff !

 

Ai, if they were so much better then why develop the "new lines"... I know trial lad who had straws off one of the old top sires from the "old stuff" that was massive and apparently hunted like hell. 

He also had a modern bred dog at same time running alongside it. 

 

He sold off the old style bred pup, he said the modern pup not only hunted faster and had more style, it hunted just as hard, hit cover just as well and was easier to train to handle and retrieve. 

I think people can look back at the "old type" and romanticise about them, without having to run them side by side against modern dogs. 

 

I also ran my modern trial bred dog against two "old type" springers at a mock trial. One of them missed a retrieve, they reckon it 100% ran on no way the old type dog would have missed it. I ran my modern type dog on 5 yards and he picked the bird up sat on the floor where the dog had run over it several times ... 

 

My modern trial bred dog is not an out and out cover basher, however I suspect some of that might be the way I brought him up. I have another trial bred pup coming on and he is looking better. I will seen what he is like by next season. 

 

In future when I have kennels and space I'll try and get a dog over from Ireland from these apparent hunt all day without any stopping, smash f**k out of thick bramble for no reward at all type of line bred dogs. I would like to see how they compare. I notice on the Rough Shooting Ireland youtube video's the dog's absolutely do hunt like animals flat out in thick cover, but they're hardly trained, they're not trained to sit to flush, shot, or fall, they charge through cover, often at times with the guns sprinting down the field so they remain in range to get a shot at the bird. I wonder if it's more the fact that the training is just hunt, run in and pick and carry on that brings on that driven to hunt and go? 

[jessdale 416]

11 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Ai, if they were so much better then why develop the "new lines"... I know trial lad who had straws off one of the old top sires from the "old stuff" that was massive and apparently hunted like hell. 

He also had a modern bred dog at same time running alongside it. 

 

He sold off the old style bred pup, he said the modern pup not only hunted faster and had more style, it hunted just as hard, hit cover just as well and was easier to train to handle and retrieve. 

I think people can look back at the "old type" and romanticise about them, without having to run them side by side against modern dogs. 

 

I also ran my modern trial bred dog against two "old type" springers at a mock trial. One of them missed a retrieve, they reckon it 100% ran on no way the old type dog would have missed it. I ran my modern type dog on 5 yards and he picked the bird up sat on the floor where the dog had run over it several times ... 

 

My modern trial bred dog is not an out and out cover basher, however I suspect some of that might be the way I brought him up. I have another trial bred pup coming on and he is looking better. I will seen what he is like by next season. 

 

In future when I have kennels and space I'll try and get a dog over from Ireland from these apparent hunt all day without any stopping, smash f**k out of thick bramble for no reward at all type of line bred dogs. I would like to see how they compare. I notice on the Rough Shooting Ireland youtube video's the dog's absolutely do hunt like animals flat out in thick cover, but they're hardly trained, they're not trained to sit to flush, shot, or fall, they charge through cover, often at times with the guns sprinting down the field so they remain in range to get a shot at the bird. I wonder if it's more the fact that the training is just hunt, run in and pick and carry on that brings on that driven to hunt and go? 

Great post. Anyone that trials/train a spaniel will tell you the best thing that slows down a dog is the dog working/listening to the whistle. A untrained dog will look fast but it’s totally untrained and who would want that ??? If Ireland was the “shangri la” for spaniels why do all the best triallers over there use the same dogs as the rest of the uk ??? The new stuff did not fall from the sky one day it was bred from this  old stuff people are going on about.

Edited December 21, 2020 by jessdale
Spelling

[Lloyd90 509]

5 minutes ago, jessdale said:

Great post. Anyone that trials/train a spaniel will tell you the best thing that slows down a dog is the dog working/listening to the whistle. A untrained dog will look fast but it’s totally untrained and who would want that ??? If Ireland was the “shangri la” for spaniels why do all the best triallers over there use the same dogs as the rest of the uk ??? The new stuff did not fall from the sky one day it was bred from the old stuff. 

 

I have lots of mates over in the UK that are from Ireland as well. Dogs are not seen the same over there as they are in the UK from my experience. They are not seen as babies and kept in houses spoilt and all that crap. 

I think a lot of those dogs in Ireland are in the kennel, come out to hunt, and then back in the kennel. 

 

 

I know a LOT of people in the UK and more and more of them keeping their "working" dogs inside the house. I am not saying it means they're not workers, but a dog that's in the house has to be trained, have manners etc, otherwise it would do your head in. I am sure this takes the edge off them and dulls down their drive.

 

Best way to take the drive out of a nutcase hunting dog, train it! Imagien dog comes out the kennel, hunts, has a retrieve, then back in the kennel, no mucking about nagging it to sit in its bed for 2-3 hours or any other nonsence. 

 

When I move house I will be putting in kennels for sure.