Rewilding. Is it me?

[Greyman 25,157]

2 hours ago, Tyla said:

Just to clarify a little bit, rewilding and reintroducing species are two different things.

They can be compatible but they are not the same thing. Rewilding is more about habitat creation to mimic the habitats that existed prior to development of land. The idea being to benefit all species of fauna and flora and to allow the soil itself to recover. This can lead to successful reintroduction but there are plenty of species already present but in dire trouble who will benefit from it first.

A whole host of things have to be lined up right for reintroduction to work. Perhaps this is where my views differ from Nicepix, it could be he is correct that more reintroduction of apex predators to the Pyrenees is no needed right now as the resources aren't there. I dont know, im not an expert.

We also differ though in what the solution should be. I believe, if that's the case, that whatever predators are already there should remain under protection while he appears to favour a cull.

If prey species numbers are too low, as he insists, I would think that reintroduction and encouragement of those species  to the point where they are high enough to sustain a predator population, would be the way forward rather than just leaving as is.

I also think there is a tendency within conservation circles to want to reintroduce the big glamorous species quickly as it looks good in the media and is good for the various egos involved. Habitats don't work on that kind of timescales and regeneration takes time. These are things they are hopefully learning by mistakes that the one in the Netherlands.

 

 

 

 

Mate I,m a earth person the only god I believe in is Mother Nature and as long people  are driven by the false god money, nature will always play second fiddle, nature thrives on neglect and when she decides we are an inconvenience we will be gone or drastically reduced for the cycle to begin again, all these projects are just people trying to appease the human conscience, but if there was no profit in it no one would be interested it’s a merry go round that we have very little control over

[sandymere 8,260]

Its a massively complex subject depending on habitat/area, species and expected outcomes to name but a few. In principle I'm in favour of maintaining and expanding our wildlife diversity but have reservations to some aspects and feel its a subject best approached on an individual basis rather than carte blanche.

Edited September 24, 2020 by sandymere

[Nicepix 5,650]

41 minutes ago, KimE said:

"Also can't stand the idea of a country that wants to Introduce a predator that could hunt humans and yet removes our right to carry a weapon to protect ourselves against it, that is completely unnatural for humans."

Wolfes and bears in europe dont really eat or kill humans.

Only once in 150 years a bear killed a man in Sweden without being hunted before the incident. (A teacher of a ex girlfriend of me was killed, butchered and half dug down under moss by an old sick bear with bad teaths.)

Dogs are often killed by wolf and sheep, fallow deer, cattle, horse. A woman had to defend her small dog from a wolf then she was walking with it in leach she also had a kid in a trolley.

Lama animals was tried for protection of sheeps againts wolfs it didn`t work. 

https://svenskjakt.se/start/nyhet/icke-skyddsvard-varg-dodade-lamor/

Bears killes some sheeps but usually dont take dogs or cats and many mostly lives on plants and berrys.

 

"I could understand the re-wilding of ibex, mouflon"

They are asian species its unnatural to plant them in in western europe, more unnatural than to plant in an animal who once existed.

 

The mouflon is as you say a relatively late introduction having originated in Asia. I came across a small group of wild mouflon in Cyprus a few years ago. They are now very rare on the island. Mouflon in France almost became hunted out if existence and it is only very recently that numbers have risen again. They favour the lowland pastures and are prone to being predated upon by wolves. In some instances mouflon herds are wiped out by wolf predation whereas other herbivore species in the same environment do not suffer the same losses. This indicates that mouflon are more likely to be at risk from bears.

Ibex however have been here for millions of years and feature in pre-historic cave paintings. Ibex also were almost hunted out of existence in many European countries. They favour higher regions and are unlikely to share their grazing with bears except when driven downhill in adverse conditions.

Regards attacks by bears:

Quote

Slovenia’s brown bear population is so plentiful that authorities are culling the animals that are becoming a headache for farmers, raiding beehives and even attacking people in the small Alpine state. Around 170 bears were shot in 2019, said Damjan Orazem, the Forest Service director.

 

https://apnews.com/022ced3796390db6ec9b4f9bb4783daf

Quote

 

"When I saw the bear in that cage in October, I knew that eight months later, it would be on my farm," said Nicolas.

The young shepherd's grim prediction came true when one of the bears, Claverina, killed one of his sheep and sent the rest bolting into the distance on the family's enclosed meadow in April in the border village of Larrau.

Local authorities later told Nicolas he had been a victim of "bear damage", with Claverina's GPS collar revealing her to be the culprit.

With Claverina having already killed eight sheep on the Spanish side of the border in May, shepherds are sleeping fitfully.

From around 30 huts dotted across the Iraty border area, shepherds take turns watching over the 80,000 sheep and cattle that spend June-September mowing the mountain pastures as part of the summer migration known as the "transhumance".

 

Macron has assured the farmers that no more bears will be released in the Pyrenees but one observer has noted that there is an EU directive to increase bear numbers across Europe and therefore France will be obliged to release more bears in the near future.

[Greyman 25,157]

2 hours ago, C.green said:

Alot more otters about then people think allways been otters and polecats about its just now theres a few too many. 

I had never seen a proper wild polecat in my life a few escaped ferrets but not real polecats and I thought they were lost in the uk apart from Scotland,, the first one I saw about 3 years ago and reported it to the mammal society with great excitement now I no of two colony’s of them within 5 miles of my house also other people I no that do the cameras are suddenly getting them, but there has been no consultation or debate, one minute none now loads

[Tyla 3,179]

2 hours ago, Nicepix said:

By God he's got it - finally!  Before introducing the bears they should have considered the food chain. Bears need animal protein in order to rise cubs and put on weight for hibernation. Where does this come from? There are only four natural sources; ibex, mouflon and salmon, if salmon do in fact reach the high pastures. All three are themselves classed as vulnerable. So that leaves one other source of animal protein that by coincidence is also easier for the bears to source - domestic sheep.

There isn't and wasn't a joined up plan to justify re-introducing the bears. The riot following the planned second re-introduction demonstrated the widespread public dissatisfaction so the plans were shelved but nothing has been done to undo what is clearly the wrong policy.

The whole point is that the bears cannot support themselves without raiding farmed livestock so the conditions weren't right for them to be released. It is important to establish that before re-introducing a species is that there is a need for it to fulfil in the environment.

There are other arguments too; shepherds now feel they have to carry guns when tending the sheep in summer. Effectively they have been put into a position of danger.

I still don't think you've really grasped what I'm saying but I am glad you are so delighted lol.

[Nicepix 5,650]

2 hours ago, Tyla said:

I still don't think you've really grasped what I'm saying but I am glad you are so delighted lol.

I honestly don't think that you know what you are saying. But in all the hypocritical opinions that you have posted you have at least acknowledged that the Pyrenean program of releasing bears might not actually have been properly thought out. Eventually you might come to realise that if the decision to release bears into the Pyrenees was flawed then somebody ought to being doing something about removing those that have been released along with their offspring. 

[Greyman 25,157]

2 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

I honestly don't think that you know what you are saying. But in all the hypocritical opinions that you have posted you have at least acknowledged that the Pyrenean program of releasing bears might not actually have been properly thought out. Eventually you might come to realise that if the decision to release bears into the Pyrenees was flawed then somebody ought to being doing something about removing those that have been released along with their offspring. 

Inbreeding will kill them, if they don’t add more fresh bloodstock, as discussed on another thread you need around 250 healthy animals to increase a population without deformity,s occurring both physically and internally, also does the Pyrenees not cover several country,s if so the eu will just stick them in the  neighbours bit and let them walk across, they are obsessed all the otters polecats and beavers  here have been funded by the eu under there rewinding program, like I said no consultations even denials,

[Born Hunter 17,622]

7 minutes ago, Greyman said:

Inbreeding will kill them, if they don’t add more fresh bloodstock, as discussed on another thread you need around 250 healthy animals to increase a population without deformity,s occurring both physically and internally

I've heard that before (and other figures quoted) but I'm not sure it's strictly true. For instance all the 35'000 odd tahr in NZ come from the 13 original stocked animals over 100 years ago. I bet it's a similar story with muntjac here.

[Greyman 25,157]

41 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

I've heard that before (and other figures quoted) but I'm not sure it's strictly true. For instance all the 35'000 odd tahr in NZ come from the 13 original stocked animals over 100 years ago. I bet it's a similar story with muntjac here.

We have a lot of species that possibly started with less even the humble squirrel so maybe just by volume if it’s a rapid breeding animal it can cope with a certain percentage of loss through inbreeding, interesting  

[byron 1,093]

5 hours ago, Greyman said:

Mate I,m a earth person the only god I believe in is Mother Nature and as long people  are driven by the false god money, nature will always play second fiddle, nature thrives on neglect and when she decides we are an inconvenience we will be gone or drastically reduced for the cycle to begin again, all these projects are just people trying to appease the human conscience, but if there was no profit in it no one would be interested it’s a merry go round that we have very little control over

man evolved to totally destroy himself,plus the rest of nature..money rules etc..man of my own words there matey..

[Nicepix 5,650]

1 hour ago, Greyman said:

Inbreeding will kill them, if they don’t add more fresh bloodstock, as discussed on another thread you need around 250 healthy animals to increase a population without deformity,s occurring both physically and internally, also does the Pyrenees not cover several country,s if so the eu will just stick them in the  neighbours bit and let them walk across, they are obsessed all the otters polecats and beavers  here have been funded by the eu under there rewinding program, like I said no consultations even denials,

It is covered here: https://placeinfrance.wordpress.com/2019/10/07/why-france-has-any-brown-bears-at-all/

Quote

“From a biological perspective, it’s clearly been a success,” Quenette explained. “We started from zero almost, and now we have a population that’s growing. The demographic parameters are good, and we also have positive indicators regarding the habitat. The Pyrenean ecosystem really can support a bear population. In the beginning, we didn’t know if they’d survive.”

What Quenette doesn't mention is that it is costing the French government €3 million a year to compensate farmers for livestock lost to bear attacks. That to me indicates that the Pyrenean ecosystem cannot support a bear population. She also remarks that Canadians don't worry about bears the same way as the French do. That might be because there are 0.22 Canadians per km2 and 18 people per km2 in the French Pyrenees, overwhelmingly in small communes, not large towns and cities.

1 hour ago, Balaur said:

They eat a fair amount of grass roots berries etc cadavers, it's not like the feed solely on meat, although they obviously can't survive without animal protein it would make sense to fast track some goats or some successful  prey species to the area.....again this could be detrimental to sheep farmers , but looking at the big picture sheep do better in lowland areas....

The sheep and cows of the Pyrenees spend the colder months in lower pastures and in sheds. In summer there is a massive drive, called transhumance, whereby the sheep and cows are taken to higher pastures where they traditionally grazed freely under minimum supervision. The Pyrenees run east-west and the valleys run north-south. This means that on the south facing  Spanish side there is much more sunshine and that leads to a greater amount of pasture per km2 on average. The French side faces northwards and that combined with the steep sided valleys means that much of the land doesn't get much sunshine and therefore the pastures are much smaller and localised. The sheep are much more localised in the French side that the Spanish side and that is where the chance of conflict with the bears is increased.

Fast tracking an alternative food source for the bears to eat isn't really an option. If they need that then they shouldn't be there in the first place as it is an admission that the location cannot sustain them.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Nicepix

[Born Hunter 17,622]

1 minute ago, Balaur said:

Okay so we provide jobs in livestock protection and tourism, reduce our consumption of meat a little, it's not like we haven't been subsidising farming (especially in France) forever anyways, maybe open hunting permits on the very fringes? Further down the road...I presume there's a boar population in the Pyrenees, maybe reduce hunting to allow this as a food source? There's always options....just the likely hood of conservationists finding them isn't always the case

Coming back to the Yellowstone as a case study, conflict with ranchers has been and still is compensated by taxpayers. The wolves are now so prolific that I believe they have done away with limits on wolf hunting on private land in ay least Idaho. Conflict is inevitable. It's the same story with lion reintroductions in Africa etc.

[sandymere 8,260]

 interesting. 

https://www.adventurecreators.com/brown-bear-pyrenees/#:~:text=The reintroduction of brown bears in the Pyrenees&text=Three healthy brown bears from,of native Pyrenean brown bears.

[Nicepix 5,650]

28 minutes ago, Balaur said:

Okay so we provide jobs in livestock protection and tourism, reduce our consumption of meat a little, it's not like we haven't been subsidising farming (especially in France) forever anyways, maybe open hunting permits on the very fringes? Further down the road...I presume there's a boar population in the Pyrenees, maybe reduce hunting to allow this as a food source? There's always options....just the likely hood of conservationists finding them isn't always the case

Who pays for the livestock protection - the farmers? The government suggest farmers use dogs. Why should they pay for dogs to protect sheep that didn't need protecting until the Government started playing God? And the dogs are only needed in the warmer months so that doubles their effective running costs as they have to be fed during the cold season.

Not a lot of boars in the mountains. They are a lowland species and as has been shown in other areas, bears and wolves take the easiest option. Boar or sheep? I know which I would prefer to pick a fight with.

[Tyla 3,179]

2 hours ago, Nicepix said:

I honestly don't think that you know what you are saying. But in all the hypocritical opinions that you have posted you have at least acknowledged that the Pyrenean program of releasing bears might not actually have been properly thought out. Eventually you might come to realise that if the decision to release bears into the Pyrenees was flawed then somebody ought to being doing something about removing those that have been released along with their offspring. 

You really are coming across as an arrogant old so and so. I've explained myself pretty clearly and been pleasant to you throughout but you either can't or won't accept anything that isn't in line with your very narrow view of the world. 

You have no idea what I do or do not know. Your mind was made up before you started this thread and you just wanted a round of applause for your opinion. If i'd realised that to start with I wouldn't have wasted my time discussing it with you.