Rewilding. Is it me?

[Nicepix 5,650]

2 minutes ago, Tyla said:

Its a difference of opinion.

We both think the reintroduction of apex predators cant work in Britain but I think it can work in the Pyrenees and you don't.

Let's leave it there.

That is because I am not a hypocrite and you are. You think the bears project can work but you cannot give any valid reasons for it other than the one that also fits the wolves in the UK argument. Nobody including those who instigated the release of bears into the Pyrenees has justified the decision.

[Tyla 3,179]

1 minute ago, Nicepix said:

That is because I am not a hypocrite and you are. You think the bears project can work but you cannot give any valid reasons for it other than the one that also fits the wolves in the UK argument. Nobody including those who instigated the release of bears into the Pyrenees has justified the decision.

I have given my reasons twice and am not going to repeatedly try and explain to you the difference between the Pyrenees and the uk.

You have you opinion and I have mine. We are both adults so let's not try and make it personal.

 

[Ken's Deputy 4,456]

So symptomatic of a small pond.

[hollands hope 1,013]

Almost all deer are culled. Alot of koniks horses were brought to Spain , still some around i believe. And there was also a primitive form cattle (Heck cattle).An attempt of breeding breeding back the aurochs. It was a lost case from the start. 

[Tyla 3,179]

54 minutes ago, hollands hope said:

Almost all deer are culled. Alot of koniks horses were brought to Spain , still some around i believe. And there was also a primitive form cattle (Heck cattle).An attempt of breeding breeding back the aurochs. It was a lost case from the start. 

https://whyy.org/segments/the-netherlands-grand-rewilding-experiment-gone-haywire/

It sounds like too much ego and not enough common sense. 

What a shame

[Nicepix 5,650]

11 hours ago, Tyla said:

I have given my reasons twice and am not going to repeatedly try and explain to you the difference between the Pyrenees and the uk.

You have you opinion and I have mine. We are both adults so let's not try and make it personal.

 

No you haven't. You said that you think it is a good idea because bears were there for millennia but do not want to apply exactly the same reasons to the wolves in the UK situation. And all along you have been trying to avoid explanation.

9 hours ago, Tyla said:

https://whyy.org/segments/the-netherlands-grand-rewilding-experiment-gone-haywire/

It sounds like too much ego and not enough common sense. 

What a shame

Exactly the same as the Pyrenees situation. Somebody thought that it was a good idea at the time but couldn't justify it so don't want to debate it.

And now nobody has the balls to admit they were wrong and implement what would be a controversial scheme to cull the bears. It would only be controversial because loads of animal rights people who have no knowledge or experience of the situation would feel it necessary to take the bear's side.

 

[Tyla 3,179]

23 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

No you haven't. You said that you think it is a good idea because bears were there for millennia but do not want to apply exactly the same reasons to the wolves in the UK situation. And all along you have been trying to avoid explanation.

Exactly the same as the Pyrenees situation. Somebody thought that it was a good idea at the time but couldn't justify it so don't want to debate it.

And now nobody has the balls to admit they were wrong and implement what would be a controversial scheme to cull the bears. It would only be controversial because loads of animal rights people who have no knowledge or experience of the situation would feel it necessary to take the bear's side.

 

Give up mate. If you can't see a difference between the uk and the Pyrenees I cant help you

[C.green 3,203]

Surely livestock gaurdians would be just the thing for the pyrenees ? Rewilding anything properly in the uk be mostly talk.

[Greyman 25,155]

12 minutes ago, C.green said:

Surely livestock gaurdians would be just the thing for the pyrenees ? Rewilding anything properly in the uk be mostly talk.

So far in the uk they have put back otters, polecats and now they are onto the pine martinis, they just do it with very little if any consultation or consideration for the impact on the immediate or wider environment, mustilids are also quite easy to breed so they just go for volume allowing for half the creatures to perish in the first couple of months, it’s quite shocking how much cruelty you can get away with in the name of conservation, ?

[C.green 3,203]

3 minutes ago, Greyman said:

So far in the uk they have put back otters, polecats and now they are onto the pine martinis, they just do it with very little if any consultation or consideration for the impact on the immediate or wider environment, mustilids are also quite easy to breed so they just go for volume allowing for half the creatures to perish in the first couple of months, it’s quite shocking how much cruelty you can get away with in the name of conservation, ?

Alot more otters about then people think allways been otters and polecats about its just now theres a few too many. 

[Tyla 3,179]

19 minutes ago, Greyman said:

So far in the uk they have put back otters, polecats and now they are onto the pine martinis, they just do it with very little if any consultation or consideration for the impact on the immediate or wider environment, mustilids are also quite easy to breed so they just go for volume allowing for half the creatures to perish in the first couple of months, it’s quite shocking how much cruelty you can get away with in the name of conservation, ?

Just to clarify a little bit, rewilding and reintroducing species are two different things.

They can be compatible but they are not the same thing. Rewilding is more about habitat creation to mimic the habitats that existed prior to development of land. The idea being to benefit all species of fauna and flora and to allow the soil itself to recover. This can lead to successful reintroduction but there are plenty of species already present but in dire trouble who will benefit from it first.

A whole host of things have to be lined up right for reintroduction to work. Perhaps this is where my views differ from Nicepix, it could be he is correct that more reintroduction of apex predators to the Pyrenees is no needed right now as the resources aren't there. I dont know, im not an expert.

We also differ though in what the solution should be. I believe, if that's the case, that whatever predators are already there should remain under protection while he appears to favour a cull.

If prey species numbers are too low, as he insists, I would think that reintroduction and encouragement of those species  to the point where they are high enough to sustain a predator population, would be the way forward rather than just leaving as is.

I also think there is a tendency within conservation circles to want to reintroduce the big glamorous species quickly as it looks good in the media and is good for the various egos involved. Habitats don't work on that kind of timescales and regeneration takes time. These are things they are hopefully learning by mistakes that the one in the Netherlands.

 

 

 

 

[Born Hunter 17,622]

The problem with these debates is that there are always folks who don't want the status quo to change who get up on their pedestal and just point out the problems. It's seems roundly agreed on this thread that the Yellowstone wolf programme was a success and yet anyone familiar with it would know that there was and still is a f**k load of opponents to it. And that is the same story for just about every wildlife reintroduction programme ever undertaken.

You have to ask yourself if you're happy with the destruction of nature that has been like an unstoppable train since, well since Homo Sapiens left Africa? If you want that train to stop then we have to start looking for solutions, on both sides.

Frankly the argument against the Pyrenean brown bear reintroduction seems to hinge on the availability and vulnerability of a food source that represents less than 20% of the animals typical diet. Now does that seem like an insurmountable problem to solve?

If we can all agree on one thing perhaps it's this, you can't save a species without saving the ecosystem...

[KimE 487]

"Also can't stand the idea of a country that wants to Introduce a predator that could hunt humans and yet removes our right to carry a weapon to protect ourselves against it, that is completely unnatural for humans."

Wolfes and bears in europe dont really eat or kill humans.

Only once in 150 years a bear killed a man in Sweden without being hunted before the incident. (A teacher of a ex girlfriend of me was killed, butchered and half dug down under moss by an old sick bear with bad teaths.)

Dogs are often killed by wolf and sheep, fallow deer, cattle, horse. A woman had to defend her small dog from a wolf then she was walking with it in leach she also had a kid in a trolley.

Lama animals was tried for protection of sheeps againts wolfs it didn`t work. 

https://svenskjakt.se/start/nyhet/icke-skyddsvard-varg-dodade-lamor/

Bears killes some sheeps but usually dont take dogs or cats and many mostly lives on plants and berrys.

 

"I could understand the re-wilding of ibex, mouflon"

They are asian species its unnatural to plant them in in western europe, more unnatural than to plant in an animal who once existed.

 

[Nicepix 5,650]

1 hour ago, Tyla said:

Just to clarify a little bit, rewilding and reintroducing species are two different things.

They can be compatible but they are not the same thing. Rewilding is more about habitat creation to mimic the habitats that existed prior to development of land. The idea being to benefit all species of fauna and flora and to allow the soil itself to recover. This can lead to successful reintroduction but there are plenty of species already present but in dire trouble who will benefit from it first.

A whole host of things have to be lined up right for reintroduction to work. Perhaps this is where my views differ from Nicepix, it could be he is correct that more reintroduction of apex predators to the Pyrenees is no needed right now as the resources aren't there. I dont know, im not an expert.

We also differ though in what the solution should be. I believe, if that's the case, that whatever predators are already there should remain under protection while he appears to favour a cull.

If prey species numbers are too low, as he insists, I would think that reintroduction and encouragement of those species  to the point where they are high enough to sustain a predator population, would be the way forward rather than just leaving as is.

I also think there is a tendency within conservation circles to want to reintroduce the big glamorous species quickly as it looks good in the media and is good for the various egos involved. Habitats don't work on that kind of timescales and regeneration takes time. These are things they are hopefully learning by mistakes that the one in the Netherlands.

 

 

 

 

By God he's got it - finally!  Before introducing the bears they should have considered the food chain. Bears need animal protein in order to rise cubs and put on weight for hibernation. Where does this come from? There are only four natural sources; ibex, mouflon and salmon, if salmon do in fact reach the high pastures. All three are themselves classed as vulnerable. So that leaves one other source of animal protein that by coincidence is also easier for the bears to source - domestic sheep.

There isn't and wasn't a joined up plan to justify re-introducing the bears. The riot following the planned second re-introduction demonstrated the widespread public dissatisfaction so the plans were shelved but nothing has been done to undo what is clearly the wrong policy.

1 hour ago, Born Hunter said:

The problem with these debates is that there are always folks who don't want the status quo to change who get up on their pedestal and just point out the problems. It's seems roundly agreed on this thread that the Yellowstone wolf programme was a success and yet anyone familiar with it would know that there was and still is a f**k load of opponents to it. And that is the same story for just about every wildlife reintroduction programme ever undertaken.

You have to ask yourself if you're happy with the destruction of nature that has been like an unstoppable train since, well since Homo Sapiens left Africa? If you want that train to stop then we have to start looking for solutions, on both sides.

Frankly the argument against the Pyrenean brown bear reintroduction seems to hinge on the availability and vulnerability of a food source that represents less than 20% of the animals typical diet. Now does that seem like an insurmountable problem to solve?

If we can all agree on one thing perhaps it's this, you can't save a species without saving the ecosystem...

The whole point is that the bears cannot support themselves without raiding farmed livestock so the conditions weren't right for them to be released. It is important to establish that before re-introducing a species is that there is a need for it to fulfil in the environment.

There are other arguments too; shepherds now feel they have to carry guns when tending the sheep in summer. Effectively they have been put into a position of danger.

[Born Hunter 17,622]

1 minute ago, Nicepix said:

The whole point is that the bears cannot support themselves without raiding farmed livestock so the conditions weren't right for them to be released. It is important to establish that before re-introducing a species is that there is a need for it to fulfil in the environment.

There are other arguments too; shepherds now feel they have to carry guns when tending the sheep in summer. Effectively they have been put into a position of danger.

I get that, I mean it seems even those responsible have acknowledged that it wasn't the success they hoped for. If it had been run by PHs out of SA, Zim or Namib then I dare say things would have been remarkably different.

If we value nature as a society/species then we are going to have to make compromises. Almost any conservation programme can expect to experience opposition. If that is the test for legitimacy then that train of destruction will just roll on over the millennia until f**k all is left. Granted this is a complex topic where politics and ideology are getting in the way of real conservation.

And for the record, the UK is in no position to be telling the rest of the world how to conserve nature when we basically turned the entire f***ing country into a farm. We as much as anyone need to reflect and compromise.