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Andy79

Coterminous application refused

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Hi 

Just after a get a general consensus.

i applied for and have been refused a coterminous grant application.

the reasons given were for my medical history and a domestic incident in 2018. Mymedical was an accidental OD of antibiotics and antihistamines in 2005 and a low mood disorder in 2010.

i sent a medical report with my application where my GP states I’m applying for firearms and that I’ve no current medications and he’s no current concerns.

now the domestic incident in 2018.

im a domestic violence victim my ex wife beat me up and was charged with GBH. 
when me and my partner had a argument I thought she was going to hit me with me being an ex prison officer the training kicked in and I put her in arm lock.

the police deemed this excessive force and charged me with assault by beating.

it went all the way to court where the CPS offered no evidence and the case was dismissed. 
we are now married and there’s been no incidents since. 
 

the FEO I had for my visit wasn’t the nicest chap he spent less an hour in my house during which time he only spoke to my wife to ask her name. 
 

I read the firearms security handbook 2019 which I applied to my cabinet and ammo safe now I keep my keys locked away as per the advice given in the handbook. 
 

He didn’t like that and told me I should hide my keys in a draw or something.

he tried to tell me I had to have a monitored alarm system installed with no explanation as to why he felt it was necessary. 
 

tried to tell me I was only allowed two rifles of the 5 I had applied for. 
 

he even rang my club to tell them that the range was not suitable for the .17hmr and the .300blk I had applied for despite those rounds wrong well within our range rating. 
 

he just generally wasn’t a very friendly approachable person.

so after speaking with the BASC firearms team I put a complaint in to the licensing manager who forwarded that complaint straight to the FEO concerned. 
 

I feel this refusal is personal because I had the cheek to complain and reference the appropriate paragraphs in the firearms security handbook that the FEO was ignoring and enforcing his opinions.
 

I have legal protection with my other shooting insurance with country cover club and after a conversation with them on Saturday they seem to believe I have an above 50/50 chance of winning an appeal.

But I’m just wondering what the general consensus is, is it worth appealing or should I just accept the refusal.

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I would take an appeal all the way, don't be bullied or brow beat by them.

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Welcome to Britain!

Where predudice is rife. 

Right or wrong you flagged their system up to tick the refusal box or partially to.

So they would of preferred you near death's door due to abuse than defend yourself! How does that render someone unsuitable?

Fight them. 

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I agree with above in principle in that you should appeal however as you want co-terminous tickets, do you already have a shotgun license, if so you may lose that if things went to court and you lost your appeal. The FEO is never going to be on your side now that his feathers are well and truely ruffled so I think you will find this to be an uphill fight.

If you do fight it with BASC providing legal council, great but if not, you need to find a solicitor who has experience in firearms and demand to see the senior officer, I don't think you will get to see the cheif constable but who knows.  Good luck.

Phil

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basc will not fight your case ,they may offer advice .if the f/d  regard you unfit to hold a fac , job done  , you can fight it privatly through legal council yes  that will be very expensive with no guarantee, ..... re apply  for a fac   and see if you get the same reaction !!!.

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4 hours ago, riohog said:

basc will not fight your case ,they may offer advice .if the f/d  regard you unfit to hold a fac , job done  , you can fight it privatly through legal council yes  that will be very expensive with no guarantee, ..... re apply  for a fac   and see if you get the same reaction !!!.

Basc WILL take appeals on, Provided when the details go the their chosen solicitor he advises a better than 50% chance of winning, it has nothing to do with the reasons for refusal, but everything to do with chances of so called success.

personally I would swerve the FEO and speak to the FLO,  and if no joy there I would request a f2f higher up. Something is obviously making them nervous, they may have grounds or maybe not, I don’t know, but if what you state is 100% correct then a friendly discussion is the first point of call and talk it over with them.

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Provided you have licensing insurance cover, I would fight it. However, Philpott has a point on co-terminous certs. That said it cuts both ways, if they regarded any of the incidents as relevent to your suitability to hold firearms, why would they regard it as irrelevent for your SGC and grant you a Shotgun Cert? Also, have theere been any issues with holding this? If not, then it seems to negate a lot of the reasons for denying you an FAC on safety grounds. An appeal does put the SGC at risk although question could they now revoke your SGC even if you accept a refusal on the FAC as they've discovered medical grounds that make you unsuitable? You need legal advice....

 In my opinion on the points you rasied as a non firearms expert ie just a forum member:

 Accidental overdose -  should be irrelevent provided it was recorded as such. Anyone can accidentally mix tablets up. You need a copy of your medical records to see what your doctor recorded. You have a right to obtain these from your GP for free. It may be your records either record this abiguosly or imply or state suicide attempt. That could be an issue although it's long in the past. You need the records to ascertain the exact nature of what was recorded and whether it was recorded correctly. As it's impossible to know if something is accidental in many intances, it may have been ambiguos, which may be the source of your problem. eg. your records may simply say "overdose". Maybe if that's the case there is other evidence to show it was accidental eg A&E hospital records, family witnesses etc

Personally, I'd say to anyone having any kind of issue that may affect an existing certificate to watch what your doctor writes in your records and correct him there and then if incorrect or if he uses language that accidentally implies another meaning. Watch out for poor / inaccurate wording. It's far easier to get it corrected on the day there and then when it's fresh in his mind. than later when he'll probably refuse. If he writes it up after your visit, then request a copy of your record same day and challenge it immediately if wrong. If your doctor needs to know why your asking him to use different language, explain your are a licensed firearms holder and it may cause you problems if he puts that because it wrongly implies... You can even prempt him and remind him in advance of him writing the record that you are a licensed firearms holder and therefore can he please be careful of his wording because... If you are genuine and the matter is simply a matter of poor choice of words, most doctors will amend their language to ensure they don't give the wrong impression. Just don't expect your doctor to lie or cover up for you if you do eg actually do have a relevent condition!

Btw I believe the Firearms dept has no right to see your records, only to request a factual report from your doctor which isn't allowed to contain opinion. However, unsure 100% if this still holds true as I believe changes was debated. Again you need proper advice as to what they can request. Might be worth requesting a copy of the mdeical report as well, although many doctors will copy you in on their report. Depending on what the actual records say, your legal team may or may not want to use them as evidence. My advice would be don't say anything directly to the FEO's / licensing dept. Pass all enquires to your advisors.

Low Mood 2010 - My understanding is low mood is not the same as depression. Everybody suffers low mood at some time and low mood is not a depressive illness. I wouldn't have thought it was a reconised risk factor in itself although there may be some concern of it leading to depression if there have been more recent or frequent episodes.

2018 incident - this one is more tricky. However, the fact the CPS offered no evidence is in your favour. Your continued relationship might be an issue though because victim or aggressor, they may be worried of recurrent bullying and the possible loss of temper resulting in threats of or the use of firearms in response. It might be helpful for your legal team to try to find out why the CPS offered no evidence. I'm not sure if they can get them to disclose this. However, the best outcome would be if the CPS maybe they thought your use of force was reasonable.

My advice would be ensure you have insurance cover for licensing matters and if you do and they are willing to fund it and take it on, then appeal provided the co-terminus advice is favourable. It may mean you attending Court. If you do appeal, you need to direct everything through your appointed solicitors and not speak to the police directly, beyond saying you'll pass it onto your legal advisors. Some forces have anti's in Licensing departments who will use any excuse to deny you a licence including tricking you or provoking you to say something incriminating. They shouldn't be in licensing departments as there is a clear conflict of interest but some are. Never assume the FEO is neutral or your friend. They're not. They're there to do a job and some will use unfair means to achieve it. Be clear and honest in all dealings and think before answering. Don't get drawn into laughing and joking with your new "friend". Keep it distanced and professional.

On the calibre fronts, the FEO may have a point. Expanding ammo is unlawful on ranges except where sighting in a hunting gun. Isn't .17hmr manufacturerd in expanding ammo only? I can't comment on .300 blk out as although I know a bit about the round, I don't know the ammunition available. It maybe a good compromise might be a single gun at 1st of lesser calibre such as .22 rf with a view to applying for a larger cf calibre at a later date if cf target is your aim. A .22rf is a very common target gun and good way of showing trust. That said, atm, with a medical refusal, calibre is somewhat irrelevent. You need to overturn the refusal before even considering calibre.

BTW if you don't have licensing cover, be aware that costs can go sky high in these appeals. A single stage appeal could result in £10K costs, so you need insurance unless you are in a financial position where you have nothing the defence can claim costs against.

 

12 hours ago, Rabid said:

Basc WILL take appeals on, Provided when the details go the their chosen solicitor he advises a better than 50% chance of winning, it has nothing to do with the reasons for refusal, but everything to do with chances of so called success.

personally I would swerve the FEO and speak to the FLO,  and if no joy there I would request a f2f higher up. Something is obviously making them nervous, they may have grounds or maybe not, I don’t know, but if what you state is 100% correct then a friendly discussion is the first point of call and talk it over with them.

Can they still change the decision though? I understood once a formal refusal was issued (he should have the refusal in wriitng, usually hand delivered), it can only be reversed on appeal.

Edited by Alsone

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Quote:-

On the calibre fronts, the FEO may have a point. Expanding ammo is unlawful on ranges except where sighting in a hunting gun. Isn't .17hmr manufacturerd in expanding ammo only? I can't comment on .300 blk out as although I know a bit about the round, I don't know the ammunition available. It maybe a good compromise might be a single gun at 1st of lesser calibre such as .22 rf with a view to applying for a larger cf calibre at a later date if cf target is your aim. A .22rf is a very common target gun and good way of showing trust. That said, atm, with a medical refusal, calibre is somewhat irrelevent. You need to overturn the refusal before even considering calibre.

A very valid point and one I mean't to say myself, it is in my mind far better to start with a request for a .22lr and an fac air rifle to ease into firearm ownership as they are likely to be more open to that request.  Different regions also vary in their views, I started with fac air gun as I was advised providing I have more that 10 acreas, I should get it.  This way takes longer but it might be worth going the longer route instead and at the same time build up a relationship with the club you intend to join so when you go for other cals, you will have a reference point.

Phil

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6 hours ago, Alsone said:

Provided you have licensing insurance cover, I would fight it. However, Philpott has a point on co-terminous certs. That said it cuts both ways, if they regarded any of the incidents as relevent to your suitability to hold firearms, why would they regard it as irrelevent for your SGC and grant you a Shotgun Cert? Also, have theere been any issues with holding this? If not, then it seems to negate a lot of the reasons for denying you an FAC on safety grounds. An appeal does put the SGC at risk although question could they now revoke your SGC even if you accept a refusal on the FAC as they've discovered medical grounds that make you unsuitable? You need legal advice....

 In my opinion on the points you rasied as a non firearms expert ie just a forum member:

 Accidental overdose -  should be irrelevent provided it was recorded as such. Anyone can accidentally mix tablets up. You need a copy of your medical records to see what your doctor recorded. You have a right to obtain these from your GP for free. It may be your records either record this abiguosly or imply or state suicide attempt. That could be an issue although it's long in the past. You need the records to ascertain the exact nature of what was recorded and whether it was recorded correctly. As it's impossible to know if something is accidental in many intances, it may have been ambiguos, which may be the source of your problem. eg. your records may simply say "overdose". Maybe if that's the case there is other evidence to show it was accidental eg A&E hospital records, family witnesses etc

Personally, I'd say to anyone having any kind of issue that may affect an existing certificate to watch what your doctor writes in your records and correct him there and then if incorrect or if he uses language that accidentally implies another meaning. Watch out for poor / inaccurate wording. It's far easier to get it corrected on the day there and then when it's fresh in his mind. than later when he'll probably refuse. If he writes it up after your visit, then request a copy of your record same day and challenge it immediately if wrong. If your doctor needs to know why your asking him to use different language, explain your are a licensed firearms holder and it may cause you problems if he puts that because it wrongly implies... You can even prempt him and remind him in advance of him writing the record that you are a licensed firearms holder and therefore can he please be careful of his wording because... If you are genuine and the matter is simply a matter of poor choice of words, most doctors will amend their language to ensure they don't give the wrong impression. Just don't expect your doctor to lie or cover up for you if you do eg actually do have a relevent condition!

Btw I believe the Firearms dept has no right to see your records, only to request a factual report from your doctor which isn't allowed to contain opinion. However, unsure 100% if this still holds true as I believe changes was debated. Again you need proper advice as to what they can request. Might be worth requesting a copy of the mdeical report as well, although many doctors will copy you in on their report. Depending on what the actual records say, your legal team may or may not want to use them as evidence. My advice would be don't say anything directly to the FEO's / licensing dept. Pass all enquires to your advisors.

Low Mood 2010 - My understanding is low mood is not the same as depression. Everybody suffers low mood at some time and low mood is not a depressive illness. I wouldn't have thought it was a reconised risk factor in itself although there may be some concern of it leading to depression if there have been more recent or frequent episodes.

2018 incident - this one is more tricky. However, the fact the CPS offered no evidence is in your favour. Your continued relationship might be an issue though because victim or aggressor, they may be worried of recurrent bullying and the possible loss of temper resulting in threats of or the use of firearms in response. It might be helpful for your legal team to try to find out why the CPS offered no evidence. I'm not sure if they can get them to disclose this. However, the best outcome would be if the CPS maybe they thought your use of force was reasonable.

My advice would be ensure you have insurance cover for licensing matters and if you do and they are willing to fund it and take it on, then appeal provided the co-terminus advice is favourable. It may mean you attending Court. If you do appeal, you need to direct everything through your appointed solicitors and not speak to the police directly, beyond saying you'll pass it onto your legal advisors. Some forces have anti's in Licensing departments who will use any excuse to deny you a licence including tricking you or provoking you to say something incriminating. They shouldn't be in licensing departments as there is a clear conflict of interest but some are. Never assume the FEO is neutral or your friend. They're not. They're there to do a job and some will use unfair means to achieve it. Be clear and honest in all dealings and think before answering. Don't get drawn into laughing and joking with your new "friend". Keep it distanced and professional.

On the calibre fronts, the FEO may have a point. Expanding ammo is unlawful on ranges except where sighting in a hunting gun. Isn't .17hmr manufacturerd in expanding ammo only? I can't comment on .300 blk out as although I know a bit about the round, I don't know the ammunition available. It maybe a good compromise might be a single gun at 1st of lesser calibre such as .22 rf with a view to applying for a larger cf calibre at a later date if cf target is your aim. A .22rf is a very common target gun and good way of showing trust. That said, atm, with a medical refusal, calibre is somewhat irrelevent. You need to overturn the refusal before even considering calibre.

BTW if you don't have licensing cover, be aware that costs can go sky high in these appeals. A single stage appeal could result in £10K costs, so you need insurance unless you are in a financial position where you have nothing the defence can claim costs against.

 

Can they still change the decision though? I understood once a formal refusal was issued (he should have the refusal in wriitng, usually hand delivered), it can only be reversed on appeal.

Bang on the money there, once the formal refusal (written and signed letter-rarely hand delivered nowadays) has been issued, the only way to overturn it is a court appeal, however, I know personally of a case where information was wrongly interpreted, an informal chat about the matter and it was rectified in a couple of weeks and he had his ticket, although it was carried out as a reapplication rather than decision overturning, it went through in days not the usual weeks or months.

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8 hours ago, philpot said:

Quote:-

On the calibre fronts, the FEO may have a point. Expanding ammo is unlawful on ranges except where sighting in a hunting gun. Isn't .17hmr manufacturerd in expanding ammo only? I can't comment on .300 blk out as although I know a bit about the round, I don't know the ammunition available. It maybe a good compromise might be a single gun at 1st of lesser calibre such as .22 rf with a view to applying for a larger cf calibre at a later date if cf target is your aim. A .22rf is a very common target gun and good way of showing trust. That said, atm, with a medical refusal, calibre is somewhat irrelevent. You need to overturn the refusal before even considering calibre.

A very valid point and one I mean't to say myself, it is in my mind far better to start with a request for a .22lr and an fac air rifle to ease into firearm ownership as they are likely to be more open to that request.  Different regions also vary in their views, I started with fac air gun as I was advised providing I have more that 10 acreas, I should get it.  This way takes longer but it might be worth going the longer route instead and at the same time build up a relationship with the club you intend to join so when you go for other cals, you will have a reference point.

Phil

i got refused fac airgun but they granted 22 17 and 223 bit strange i thought

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21 hours ago, philpot said:

Quote:-

On the calibre fronts, the FEO may have a point. Expanding ammo is unlawful on ranges except where sighting in a hunting gun. Isn't .17hmr manufacturerd in expanding ammo only? I can't comment on .300 blk out as although I know a bit about the round, I don't know the ammunition available. It maybe a good compromise might be a single gun at 1st of lesser calibre such as .22 rf with a view to applying for a larger cf calibre at a later date if cf target is your aim. A .22rf is a very common target gun and good way of showing trust. That said, atm, with a medical refusal, calibre is somewhat irrelevent. You need to overturn the refusal before even considering calibre.

A very valid point and one I mean't to say myself, it is in my mind far better to start with a request for a .22lr and an fac air rifle to ease into firearm ownership as they are likely to be more open to that request.  Different regions also vary in their views, I started with fac air gun as I was advised providing I have more that 10 acreas, I should get it.  This way takes longer but it might be worth going the longer route instead and at the same time build up a relationship with the club you intend to join so when you go for other cals, you will have a reference point.

Phil

Yeah one thing I forgot to mention as well Phil, is I think the calibre choices were ALL ill advised. There's the issue with the HMR but also .300 BLK may raise some alarm bells in someone with "history". So far as I'm aware, it's virtually non existent in the UK. It's a military calibre for special ops in the US, which may raises some questions as to it's choice and whether the person idolises / has an obssession with the military or has non legal uses in mind.

Although, .223 (5.56) is also a military calibre, it's very well established as a civilian calibre in .223 guise with a wide range of civilian hunting uses. Although civilians may have .300blk in the US, it's still niche and over there they have a right to bear arms for self defence. In the UK, with it so far as I'm aware, practically unheard of, someone with a "history" applying for what is an almost exclusively military calibre with little to no civilian use, is bound to ring some alarm bells. It goes without saying for target clubs in the UK you can pretty much have anything you want within the limits of what the police will grant and the range is cleared for. That said, for a 1st grant with some history, I don't believe it was the best choice. As said above, the "safe" option would have been .22rf and then to have taken matters from there some time down the line if granted. It might be worth getting a legal advisor to open some dialogue to see if the police would support an application for .22rf (maybe with some restrictions such as it being kept at the club). I tend to think not with the possible reasons for rejection but then again if he's attended the club for some time without concern, there maybe some wriggle room for a new application rather than an appeal if they would support an alternative. My best advice would be get proper legal advice via your insurance as a firearms solicitor will know the situation far better than I do and be able to give proper advice.

Edited by Alsone

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Is it just me or does anyone else find it strange that someone would bother to join a forum, post something like this as his first post and not come back to see the responses?

We can only give opinions anyway, not give advice as we don't know the ins and outs, only what the OP has told us which may or may not be half a story. 

I don't believe the FEO would phone the range and say it wasn't cleared for 17hmr or 300BLK as someone senior to him has already made the decision on muzzle energy and velocity when granting the club its licence. Those calibres aren't recognised target calibres, although you can get 300BLK in FMJ, but if they fall within the prescribed limits and you wanted to zero them at the range, then there is no problem. Acquiring them just for range use IMO is unlikely to be granted, regardless of the range. 

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2 hours ago, walshie said:

Is it just me or does anyone else find it strange that someone would bother to join a forum, post something like this as his first post and not come back to see the responses?

We can only give opinions anyway, not give advice as we don't know the ins and outs, only what the OP has told us which may or may not be half a story. 

I don't believe the FEO would phone the range and say it wasn't cleared for 17hmr or 300BLK as someone senior to him has already made the decision on muzzle energy and velocity when granting the club its licence. Those calibres aren't recognised target calibres, although you can get 300BLK in FMJ, but if they fall within the prescribed limits and you wanted to zero them at the range, then there is no problem. Acquiring them just for range use IMO is unlikely to be granted, regardless of the range. 

Hmmm, good point!

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