Schutzhund dog training, guard, bite ect ect training.

[C.green 3,203]

[jetro 5,349]

45 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

A lot of dogs bite through fear and collies are probably one of the worst breeds for that. The  police / prisons / army test the dogs before they are trained to bite. Sometimes though because of issues with finance, time and politics some dogs get through the screening that are never going to protect the handler. You were always told to get a bite under your belt early on after finishing training so that you knew that you could trust your dog to defend you. Some handlers though were happy to have non biting dogs because they never intended going into situations where the dog would be tested.

There are at least three types of biter. The 'flute player' gets hold tentatively with the front of its mouth and goes up and down the arm like someone playing the flute and never gets a proper grip. Then you have the 'clamp' that gets hold with a full mouthful and never lets go or adjusts its hold. The worst is the 'shark' as they get hold then shake the victim and can cause serious injury by tearing out muscles and severing tendons. Over the years I realised that dogs that followed a certain type of look often performed the same in lots of ways. The big boned ginger rough haired type were often the 'sharks' but they also were the ones to suffer most through age and didn't work as long as the smaller smooth coated mainly black type.  It was good fun while it lasted.

Incidentally, in my time more police dog handlers were hospitalised through bring bitten by their labradors than GSDs. Trying to get food off a dog searching for drugs or explosives was the main cause.

 Were you a dog handler Nicepix. 

You seem very educated on the training of them. Thanks for the info 

Atb j 

[Nicepix 5,650]

Yes, I had two general purpose dogs (find 'em & bite 'em dogs) and spent a bit of time in the dog training dept sourcing and assessing new dogs. As I said earlier; it was good at the time.

[Nicepix 5,650]

This Belgian Police vid is interesting. Even the handler cops for it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4moJqmTtBgg

[bird 9,594]

11 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

This Belgian Police vid is interesting. Even the handler cops for it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4moJqmTtBgg

lol  ,sent pm !

[keepdiggin 9,216]

I like downsouths bandogs

[downsouth 6,831]

1 hour ago, Nicepix said:

Yes, I had two general purpose dogs (find 'em & bite 'em dogs) and spent a bit of time in the dog training dept sourcing and assessing new dogs. As I said earlier; it was good at the time.

Do you know Steve D who ran the Met Police dog department for msny years?

[Nicepix 5,650]

No. It is a big organisation and I didn't meet everybody.

[downsouth 6,831]

13 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

No. It is a big organisation and I didn't meet everybody.

Didnt think you would have met everybody.I just thought that as he ran the Met police breeding program and is still high up in  German Shepherd and police dog department circles you might have known who he is.

[Nicepix 5,650]

Most forces have their own breeding or recruiting systems. It is very parochial and the only times that dog handlers would mix with those from other forces would be at dog trials or district training courses. He might be the biggest wheel in the Met' but we would have absolutely no idea of who he was in sunny South Yorkshire, and vica-versa.

[jetro 5,349]

2 hours ago, Nicepix said:

Most forces have their own breeding or recruiting systems. It is very parochial and the only times that dog handlers would mix with those from other forces would be at dog trials or district training courses. He might be the biggest wheel in the Met' but we would have absolutely no idea of who he was in sunny South Yorkshire, and vica-versa.

Which would you rate as the better, more reliable steady working dog, going on your own experience, the belgain Mali, or the German shepherd. 

There's a company over here that train gsds in p.p. Or security, there source all their dogs in eastern Europe, some very impressive looking dogs. 2.5k euros they charge for a fully trained dog for p.p. 

Atb j 

[Nicepix 5,650]

The problem is that you can't find enough GSDs that haven't been ruined by the KC. Mallies only got a look in because of the shortage of genuinely good GSDs. The dogs that come from Eastern and Central Europe ain't GSDs. They have a rough, grizzelled coat and the first batch we bought were really good but once the breeders saw the £££'s they started sending all sorts of crap over.

Top and bottom is that there aren't enough GSDs of the specification the breed was designed for. Mallies are 10kg lighter and Rotties have to be trained at an early age to work away from the handler otherwise they are just close protection dogs. Malliies and GSDs run at the same speed. Getting taken down by 25kg isn't the same as being hit by 35kg + of a good GSD.

Some force including the one I worked for have tried breeding programs but the wastage is phenomenal. Some of the best dogs I have worked alongside came in as donations from homes where they had been left to fend for themselves or run wild. Once we got them in and channelled them into the police work they became really good dogs. The ones that were bred by the force and put out as pups to handlers and members of the public who brought them up 'right' rarely had the spirit required to stand on their own four feet and take charge of a situation.  There were two dog handlers out of about fifty who knew how to bring a pup on. They let the pup become a little b'stard for its first year and didn't let it become dependent on the handler's current working GSD. I did the same when I got my second dog at 11 months old. He never got chance to become subservient to the older dog. Off duty I took him out, just me and him at pub turning out times, school turning out times, round local football matches, just me and him so we became the pack. If I had taken him out with the older dog he would have taken a back seat and let him take the lead.

There is a firm in Nth London who have contracts for stray dog collection in many boroughs. They sort the unclaimed dogs and offer some to police, army and prisons. 20 years ago the price was £1,000 for a GSD. By the time I left in 2007 we were paying £3,500 for them from there or abroad. The last time I went down I tested around thirty dogs and only two passed. The time before I just picked up three dogs that had been selected for us by one of our former instructors who went on to work for them. Three weeks later I took them back.

So, basically to answer your question' hypothetically I would pick a smallish (35kg) mainly black, smooth coated GSD like this one.   But I doubt that such a dog now exists.

This was his replacement:. The old warrior is in the background:

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Nicepix

[MH1 1,804]

Are Rotties ever used in the police Nicepix?

[jetro 5,349]

9 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

The problem is that you can't find enough GSDs that haven't been ruined by the KC. Mallies only got a look in because of the shortage of genuinely good GSDs. The dogs that come from Eastern and Central Europe ain't GSDs. They have a rough, grizzelled coat and the first batch we bought were really good but once the breeders saw the £££'s they started sending all sorts of crap over.

Top and bottom is that there aren't enough GSDs of the specification the breed was designed for. Mallies are 10kg lighter and Rotties have to be trained at an early age to work away from the handler otherwise they are just close protection dogs. Malliies and GSDs run at the same speed. Getting taken down by 25kg isn't the same as being hit by 35kg + of a good GSD.

Some force including the one I worked for have tried breeding programs but the wastage is phenomenal. Some of the best dogs I have worked alongside came in as donations from homes where they had been left to fend for themselves or run wild. Once we got them in and channelled them into the police work they became really good dogs. The ones that were bred by the force and put out as pups to handlers and members of the public who brought them up 'right' rarely had the spirit required to stand on their own four feet and take charge of a situation.  There were two dog handlers out of about fifty who knew how to bring a pup on. They let the pup become a little b'stard for its first year and didn't let it become dependent on the handler's current working GSD. I did the same when I got my second dog at 11 months old. He never got chance to become subservient to the older dog. Off duty I took him out, just me and him at pub turning out times, school turning out times, round local football matches, just me and him so we became the pack. If I had taken him out with the older dog he would have taken a back seat and let him take the lead.

There is a firm in Nth London who have contracts for stray dog collection in many boroughs. They sort the unclaimed dogs and offer some to police, army and prisons. 20 years ago the price was £1,000 for a GSD. By the time I left in 2007 we were paying £3,500 for them from there or abroad. The last time I went down I tested around thirty dogs and only two passed. The time before I just picked up three dogs that had been selected for us by one of our former instructors who went on to work for them. Three weeks later I took them back.

So, basically to answer your question' hypothetically I would pick a smallish (35kg) mainly black, smooth coated GSD like this one.   But I doubt that such a dog now exists.

This was his replacement:. The old warrior is in the background:

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your in-depth answer.  You answered everything I was going to ask in this post. 

I was brought up with gsds,, 70s and 80s, kept them up into the late 90s. It's hard to find good working type now. Some I looked at, their parents were full on, 24/7.  Never really relaxed. Kinda stressful in a family environment, so the owners said.

Atb j