.17 HMR Fox- heart or heart shot? Plus ammo.

[philpot 4,925]

48 minutes ago, Sausagedog said:

What kind of land is it? Flat, hilly and woodlands?

The Lincolnshire wolds so hills and sweeping valleys along with large flat areas, some woodlands, a wooded / grassed quarry and river banks. Most of the land is arable with little live stock apart from a couple of smaller farms. In other words a real mix of landscapes which again makes my head spin as to what is better suited.

Phil

[Sausagedog 7,381]

3 minutes ago, philpot said:

The Lincolnshire wolds so hills and sweeping valleys along with large flat areas, some woodlands, a wooded / grassed quarry and river banks. Most of the land is arable with little live stock apart from a couple of smaller farms. In other words a real mix of landscapes which again makes my head spin as to what is better suited.

Phil

Mate, you in the same boat as me kind of. Anything you get will be the right choice and at times the wrong choice but you will adapt and just get on.

[Meece 1,957]

On 10/01/2020 at 23:12, Billy_boy_2010 said:

 

FEO has granted my 17 HMR for fox- saying 22 wasn't sufficient. 

A local farmer wants me to take care of the foxes before lambing season. So- my question is- which causes the most ethical kill with HMR ? 

1) Heart/lung  (more forgiving......unless I hit a bone and the little round struggles ? May not be that quick? Assume heart is missed- would a lung shot do the job quickly?) Expanding will be quicker in lung but more likely to struggle with the shoulder joint? 

2) Head (potentially instant and I assume the fast round won't bounce off the fox angled skull like a 22 occasionally can?) But a smaller target. Harder bullet potentially better here but such a tiny tiny entrance hole who knows what direction the bullet would take ?! 

And do you use the ballistic tip for full metal non expanding ?  I wonder whether the expanding tip will be forgiving of a less than optimal shot- or will it potentially expand immediately before it penetrates sufficiently? 

For the sake of argument let's keep the range sensible at 75 yards. I would hope to be well inside this most of the time. 

Medium term I want a deer calibre which I would feel an awful lot happier with for foxes- but as this may take a few months I will make a start with the HMR. 

Any advice would be great thanks guys. 

 

On 11/01/2020 at 10:07, Sausagedog said:

I used a 308 on fox for years and 30/30.

110 GRN vmax on top of a full case of h4895 and you can just center them from any angle.

It's not overkill, overkill don't really exist bro.

Re the chest shot, the only bone there is rib and they are light. Your tiny pill will ruin the lungs and get heavy bleeders.

I think that with many folk, especially in the UK a bang flop is the ultimate goal.

That's fine but not guaranteed by any calibre. Deer stalkers expect the beast to go on a death run when shot across the chest but on small game it seems to be frowned on! It is quite normal for a dead animal that does quite know what just happened to him to run some. This is why good follow up skills are a must.

In fact I would go as far as to say that for some the perceived unacceptable occasion a critter goes on a death run has lead them to risk wounding an animals jaw, of which I have seen happen, even after prior encouraging no head shots!

I love Stavros but he said there is more margin for error with a chest shot. Personally, my worthless opinion is that there is more room for error with a head shot. I however respect his opinion and field craft to acknowledge his experienced authority on the subject.

How was that for creeping?

 

SD.

 

20 hours ago, vizlauk said:

Interesting this section of the topic to me, I'm thinking about putting in for a variation,  mainly for dedicated fox, I had my mind set on 22-250, but after a visit to a couple of rfd I think I'm more likely to go 223 or just go 243, due to the ammo choice of 22_250

Hi guys 

I have lots of experiencs shooting bunnies and squirrels etc plus shotgun but it's my first time on fox.

; I was also advised that after 600 rounds plus a new barrel will be required on the 22-250, not sure if this is true !

So my mind set was 223, then when I looked at ammo costs, there's nothing in it between 223 & 243 , so I may just go 243 that will be the correct calibre for deer if I decide to go that way & more than enough for fox at distance. 

 

I was also advised that after 600 rounds plus a new barrel will be required on the 22-250, not sure if this is true.

I dont know which is worse. someone stating this nonsense or you for believing it. Flea shooting nonsense.

10 hours ago, Deker said:

I deal with a lot of foxes, and a lot in peoples back gardens.

.22lr, HMR and WMR are all very capable of fox.    Of course there are times a C/F will prevail, but comments I hear regularly that rimfire is no use on fox you need centrefire is bollocks, It's about the situation!!!

Same with head/chest/bib shots, none are better than the other, you have to weigh up every situation and place the shot to best advantage.

.

What a good thread with cracking posts and so  much  experience.  I see that the foes are still spouting a load of crap regarding 22lr not being enough for fox. This sort of nonsense is usually based on some comment that someone has given as an opinion and suddenly it becomes  gospel and the feos go round stating this crud is force policy to people who are putting in for a fac and soon it becomes the accepted norm.  On a lot of these threads the same old nonsense is recycled. whan you realise that all 22 cf cals use a .224 bullet that is being launched at between 3100 ...3600 it dont really matter what the cal is. Dead is dead.  Stuff dont just go bang fop all the time. Dont expect it to. Im there to kill.  I dont care if its in this field or the next one. A good example of this is a rabbit that I  shot.  I knew it had been hit hard by the blood trail.  This rabbit took off and ran a good 150 yards across a grass field through a gate, across a farm track up a small bank, through a sheep fence into corn.  I couldn't believe that it had run.  The dog and I followed the track to the corn where I had seen it enter.  I put the dog over the fence and within two foot the dog found it. When paunched, the inside was flooded with blood and the bullet had entered the front of the chest down through the chest completely mashing the liver, clipping a kidney and exiting out above the haunch.  I think that at certain times of the year there is a possibility that hormones come into play regarding how strong animals are regarding fight / flight  ability. I've seen this several times to come to this non scientific conclusion.  I don't care too much if they keel over here or the next field. I'm just there to kill. Also consider the 222. A cracking round that's gone off the front page and theyre cheap now. don't forget... shoot to kill. Ps not a fan of the 17hmr. A fad.   Too much for rabbit and not enough for Fox.  Still that's just an opinion which everyone has.

Pps. don't shoot stuff in the head.  The amount of deer that get their jaw blown off.  Theyve only got to move their head slightly and your off especially at range. stuff it in the engine  room. Don'tf orget. Shoot to kill.   One shot one kill 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Meece

[philpot 4,925]

2 hours ago, Sausagedog said:

Mate, you in the same boat as me kind of. Anything you get will be the right choice and at times the wrong choice but you will adapt and just get on.

We were out tonight on two farms and saw five foxes in total but not .22lr fodder with a range of 135 - 180mts.

[Sausagedog 7,381]

Just now, philpot said:

We were out tonight on two farms and saw five foxes in total but not .22lr fodder with a range of 135 - 180mts.

 Wouldn't they come to a squeal?

WMR. Hornet, 222, 223.

[nick703 446]

3 hours ago, philpot said:

The Lincolnshire wolds so hills and sweeping valleys along with large flat areas, some woodlands, a wooded / grassed quarry and river banks. Most of the land is arable with little live stock apart from a couple of smaller farms. In other words a real mix of landscapes which again makes my head spin as to what is better suited.

Phil

I have a good amount of land in the Lincolnshire wolds, loads of foxes there 

[FOXHUNTER 5,020]

22 minutes ago, philpot said:

We were out tonight on two farms and saw five foxes in total but not .22lr fodder with a range of 135 - 180mts.

Get yourself a .243 which covers you for deer also

[Meece 1,957]

1 hour ago, FOXHUNTER said:

Get yourself a .243 which covers you for deer also

You are correct and there's no messing with the 243  but the cost of ammunition to shoot someone elses fox problem.  Unless they are providing the ammunition ect.  Why is it that not many farmers shoot.  I can't see how it is any difference to bringing a crop / product to market.  If I  we're a sheep farmer and Charlie was taking the lambs I'd sort it myself.  Wouldn't you ?  Surely it's no different to people asking a farmer if they can't take there own tractor and fuel ect along and ploughing his fields for him  for nothing ?  We're all nuts.

[Stavross 13,711]

You are right there, I know loads of farmers, from arable, sheep, beef and none of them have FAC, they all have SGC and game shoot but would never shoot for crop protection, they always ring me, not that I’m complaining mind

[Sausagedog 7,381]

5 hours ago, Meece said:

You are correct and there's no messing with the 243  but the cost of ammunition to shoot someone elses fox problem.  Unless they are providing the ammunition ect.  Why is it that not many farmers shoot.  I can't see how it is any difference to bringing a crop / product to market.  If I  we're a sheep farmer and Charlie was taking the lambs I'd sort it myself.  Wouldn't you ?  Surely it's no different to people asking a farmer if they can't take there own tractor and fuel ect along and ploughing his fields for him  for nothing ?  We're all nuts.

That's why I don't call places I shoot "perms" or " permissions".

It's more of a service or cooperative. I'm doing them a favour and in return I expect a few perks.

[philpot 4,925]

Make a mental note ................................................. look into fox calls.

I am a retired old fart so expensive ammo is not on my hit list at all but if I use enough ammo to make it viable, I will look into reloading and that is something I would really enjoy, takes me back to when I used to reload all my shotgun shells.

I feel that I have hijacked this thread so I am sorry for that, I should start a new thread,     sort Phil and his foxes, hmmm

Phil

[ianm 2,594]

19 hours ago, philpot said:

We were out tonight on two farms and saw five foxes in total but not .22lr fodder with a range of 135 - 180mts.

Make them 22lr fodder by getting tucked in somewhere downwind and call them into range.

[FOXHUNTER 5,020]

10 hours ago, philpot said:

Make a mental note ................................................. look into fox calls.

I am a retired old fart so expensive ammo is not on my hit list at all but if I use enough ammo to make it viable, I will look into reloading and that is something I would really enjoy, takes me back to when I used to reload all my shotgun shells.

I feel that I have hijacked this thread so I am sorry for that, I should start a new thread,     sort Phil and his foxes, hmmm

Phil

Get a Foxpro , you wont look back

Edited January 13, 2020 by FOXHUNTER

[Billy_boy_2010 8]

I'm really thrilled this has sparked such conversation 

 

The conclusion i have come to is 

 

HMR will usually kill a fox cleanly. The closer the better and there's a greater chance it will be a slower kill than a larger round- thus it's not ideal. But if you put it in the right spot it will usually do the job. 

 

It does seem some of the issues with the HMR is under penetration/excess fracturing on superficial impact. This seems more of a risk with head shots.

Would a solid tip be more suitable for head shots perhaps? Or could that tiny round over penetrate and do little internal damage?

I take people's point that one should shoot the best target that presents itself- so loading for a chest or headshot is unlikely to pan out as one would hope. 

A larger calibre ASAP methinks. In the mean time I will get some more hours in with the HMR off sticks and see how I find it. It's relatively inexpensive to feed. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Billy_boy_2010

[Alsone 789]

On 11/01/2020 at 08:05, Sausagedog said:

The angle of the forehead is shallow yes but ideally the soft lead bullet deforms just enough the bust the skull. 40gn beats 17gn always in my book, not saying it's no good but bullet weight on target gets my vote.

 

(Written to newbies knowledge not to you SD), The difference is .22 has too low a velocity to cause hydrostatic shock. It relies entirely on the slightly expanded head driving into a vital organ or blood vessel, or driving the very small area of energy immediately ahead of the bullet into the same. .22 LR also has marginal energy at range against a fox sized target.

.17 HMR despite being small, causes considerable damage around the impact area through a hydro-static shock wave that expands sideways as well as forwards thus increasing it's ability to kill even though not directly on or ahead of a vital organ / blood vessel. The shock wave, not only the bullet, has the ability to damage organs and blow out blood vessels without any direct contact from the bullet. .22 lr will kill fox humanely. It has sufficient energy if it's well placed and the range is short. The reason FEO's prefer .17hmr as a minimum is the hydrostatic shock effect gives more room for error in bullet placement. That's especially important with a less experienced shooter.

As for the OP's question on ammo, you should never use totally solid bullets on live prey as they tend to drill neat small holes straight through and so can pass through without causing any significant damage entirely. Full metal jacket (more usually bonded cores on civilian ammo - are as civilian rounds metal jackets bonded to lead in a way designed to expand progressively (the military aren't allowed expansion under the Geneva Convention)). and are more suitable to large animals such as deer where the bullet needs to penetrate a thicker skin and drive much deeper before expanding than required for small to medium non tough animals such as fox. Bonded cores will over penetrate on small soft animals and again may pass straight through without significant damage due to insufficient resistance to cause expansion. Ballistic tips are ideal for small animals where the emphasis is on delivering maximum shock to achieve an instant humane kill where the preserving the pelt isn't important. A less destructive alternative is a soft point such as found on .22 lr ammo, but there's little point unless pelt preservation is an aim. Generally ballistic tips are recommended for pest control because they increase the certainty of a kill.