Kibble

[troyboy17 631]

On 26/08/2019 at 11:36, colliejohn said:

Cheers Neal. Regards Collie John.

I feed Australian formula with 20% greyhound kibble plus beef and tripe

[trigger2 3,100]

I am currently feeding wynstay home brand meaty mix dog food to mine. Now I’ve started to put some decent shifts in they will get fed dry along with a combination of table scraps and raw meat. I’ve fed some expensive dry foods  over the years, but imo they need a good intake of meat into there diet, on real hard nights out I’ve found my dogs tend to carry a little more stamina on a mixed meat and kibble diet than kibble alone. I’ve never fed just meat to see if that makes any difference to stamina levels as I believe there are things in kibble that meat alone doesn’t provide to keep a reasonably balanced diet.

[sandymere 8,260]

It’s refreshing to see people discussing diets, including completes, and not getting slated. I can remember a few years ago how things were different, mind i had many a merry time winding up the more evangelical barfists over the years.

 

Variety is the spice of life and diet.

[Black neck 15,156]

2 minutes ago, sandymere said:

It’s refreshing to see people discussing diets, including completes, and not getting slated. I can remember a few years ago how things were different, mind i had many a merry time winding up the more evangelical barfists over the years.

 

Variety is the spice of life and diet.

Even beans 

[sandymere 8,260]

8 minutes ago, Black neck said:

Even beans 

Just as long as there heinz.....

[joe ox 2,541]

These topics remind me of veggies they rave on about not needing to eat meat then have to take supplements because they don't eat it

[TOMO 24,835]

both for me as well.....I use the £6 for 12 kilo stuff from aldi.......added to about a pound of raw.....which is both muscle and ofal.....also with 3 kids theres always loads of left overs wich gets piled on.....I always clean any fat from cooking in to there bowls as well....once a week some bones usualy get them lamb bones from morrisons

[TOMO 24,835]

both for me as well.....I use the £6 for 12 kilo stuff from aldi.......added to about a pound of raw.....which is both muscle and ofal.....also with 3 kids theres always loads of left overs wich gets piled on.....I always clean any fat from cooking in to there bowls as well....once a week some bones usualy get them lamb bones from morrisons

[Aussie Whip 3,819]

1 hour ago, gaza said:

I’m finding that with my pup just feeding raw the weight drops off him. What veg do people feed...and what shouldn’t you feed. Sell some mad sh*t at local raw place mixed fruits for dogs for daft money. 

Not onions or garlic.I boil all the veg up out of the garden, leaves and offcuts,and when cooked throw a cut up rabbit in, but not cook it.good meal for them after a cold mornings hunt.

[Neobliviscaris1776 1,998]

Im in agreement that Kibble has its place just like vitamins and minerals have there place for humans and is beneficial to health. 

However, unless the dog is consuming primarily 'real food protein source' ie meat and the like, the benefits derived from kibble will be greatly reduced. Feeding solely on it is going to cause longterm issues for a dog.

Absorption of the nutrients in kibble(processed) can only be achieved by the foundation of a strong system in the dog. Only 'Real food' can achieve this first and foremost, and optimum health in any animal or human for that matter.

We can take all the vitamins and minerals we want, but will have little significant effect if our diet is poor and lacking protein.

It's convenient for sure but should never be the no.1 choice as it's not 'Real food.'

All the best

 

 

[sandymere 8,260]

Arleigh Reynolds, DVM, PhD, DACVN
Jill Cline, PhD
Performance dog feeding 

 

Most veterinarians have clients that participate with their in various sports or activities, and they may seek information on how to feed their active dogs appropriately. This article provides practical advice for the feeding of active
dogs, whether pulling a sled in Minnesota, chasing Frisbees in California, or chasing fox in Virginia.

Exercise intensity
The majority of performance dog nutrition research has been conducted using either endurance sled dogs or greyhounds as models. However, most performance dogs are neither. Instead, they are hunting dogs, service dogs, and working dogs that participate in a wide range of physical activities. Table 1 lists different canine athletic activities and their level of intensity. Exercise intensity is usually discussed in terms of VO2 or workload. VO2 is a measure of oxygen consumption that indicates workload or exercise intensity and VO2 max is the amount of oxygen consumed when exercising at maximum intensity1. Since VO2 max can be increased by conditioning, references to VO2 max throughout this article refer to a fully conditioned dog.

Exercise can be loosely divided into three categories based on VO2 max. High intensity exercise is greater than 75% VO2 max and uses anaerobic fuel sources, primarily phosphocreatine, muscle glycogen and carbohydrates. Moderate intensity exercise occurs between 30-50% VO2 max and is primarily aerobic in nature, including the aerobic metabolism of both carbohydrates and free fatty acids (FFA), and small amounts of protein. Finally, low intensity exercise is exercise up to 30% VO2 max and is completely aerobic in nature, utilizing primarily free fatty acids for fuel1.

Endurance Canine Athletes
Table 2 summarizes the feeding recommendations for canine endurance athletes. Canine endurance athletes, like sled dogs, typically exercise for an extended time period in the low intensity (up to 30% VO2 max) and moderate intensity (30-50% VO2 max) range with very short bouts of high intensity going up a hill or at the finish of a race. Therefore, the primary fuel for canine endurance athletes is free fatty acids. Dogs are more efficient at metabolism fat than most other species2. Further, through a combination of training and diet, there can be an increase in the amount of circulating FFA available for use as an energy substrate1. Muscle FFA can contribute up to 60% of energy during the first 2-3 hours of exercise 3.

An appropriate feeding regime for endurance sled dogs includes approximately 35% of calories from protein, 45% calories from fat and 20% of calories from carbohydrates. However, these are estimates and all dogs should be fed to maintain appropriate body condition for the sport in which they are participating. Sled dogs exercising at low to moderate intensity with short bouts of high intensity work need a minimum of 24% of calories from protein in the diet to prevent soft tissue injury4. Dogs fed 16% protein, as a percent of calories, had more soft tissue injuries, which required that they be removed from the exercise rotation for at least three days4.

Canine endurance athletes have a tremendous requirement for energy. Working sled dogs calorie requirements can range up to 6,000-10,000 kilocalories/day depending on environmental condition, exercise intensity and duration1. Daily energy requirements are usually greater than 5X resting energy rate. High dietary energy density is key to these canine athletes. Since fat has about 2.25 times more energy than either protein or carbohydrate per gram, high fat diets help meet the energy needs of canine endurance athletes. Small amounts of dietary carbohydrate are useful in stabilizing gut motility in endurance canine athletes. Sled dogs fed diets without carbohydrate were more susceptible to “stress” diarrhea than those that had 17 % carbohydrate in their diets5.

Long distance endurance events cause an increase in lipid peroxidation and free radical production. The extremely high fat diets required by endurance sled dogs can exacerbate this phenomena so increased antioxidants like vitamin E and selenium have been recommended to help minimize the effects of free radicals1.

Sprint/ Weight Pulling Canine Athletes
Dogs involved in sprinting and weight pulling activities such as sight hound racing or sledge pulling competitions undergo short periods of very intense exercise. These types of dogs typically do not have higher energy requirements than those of moderately active pet dogs. A greyhound expends approximately 75 kcal per race6. The energy required for these types of activities is solely anaerobic and comes from the muscle energy stores. Most canine athletes engaged in sprint type activities have an energy requirement of 1.6-2 X resting energy rate1. An appropriate feeding regime for sprint type canine athletes consists of a diet that contains approximately 25% calories from protein, 30% calories from fat and 45% calories from carbohydrates (Table 2).

Greyhounds can deplete up to 70% of their muscle glycogen during a race7. However, it seems that “carb loading” as described for humans does not benefit these canine athletes8. Hill et al demonstrated that greyhounds ran faster when carbohydrate was increased from 30 to 45% ME at the expense of protein but they ran slower when fed 54% carbohydrates at the expense of protein and fat9.

While vitamins E and C provide protection against oxidative damage, they do not appear to enhance racing performance. On the contrary, super-supplementation with these antioxidant vitamins actually slowed greyhounds10. However, many racing dogs are fed raw meat or fish in addition to a complete and balanced dog food. Raw meats and fish, which can be high in PUFA, are susceptible to oxidation. Therefore, the amount of vitamin E included in the diet should be proportional to the fat levels in the diet11.

Intermediate Canine Athletes
Most canine athletes fall into the nebulous category of “intermediate” exercise intensity. Some dogs are “weekend warriors” for example, the family retriever who does double duty as the duck retrieving dog on the weekend. These dogs exercise hard, and sometimes for many hours on the weekends but do not exercise during the week. Other canine athletes exercise more regularly like military or service dogs.

Table 1 list a few of the activities in which dogs may participate. There may be short bursts of intense activity, like running up a hill or sprinting after a bird in the case of a hunting dog or completing an agility course, but the majority of intermediate canine athletes exercise at an intensity well below 75% VO2 max. Therefore, the exercise of these intermediate athletes more closely resembles endurance exercise rather than sprint exercise.

A recent survey of fox hound hunting clubs reported that formal hunts last from 2-6 hours and the average distance covered was between 8-10 miles but could range up to 20 miles 12. Intermediate athletes can be subdivided into two categories- those who exercise at a low-moderate frequency and duration and those who exercise at a higher duration and frequency. Table 2 details nutrient requirements for intermediate canine athletes. In general, canine intermediate athletes require at least 25% of calories as protein. Protein requirements increase in relation to increased work1. Exercise causes an increased need for structural proteins (muscle, collagen) and functional proteins (enzymes) 1. As exercise frequency increases through continued work or training, the enzymes for energy metabolism are up-regulated, requiring more protein13. In addition, blood volume increases with continued aerobic exercise and there is a concomitant increase in plasma volume that requires additional protein14. Thus there is an enhanced rate of protein synthesis associated with regular exercise. There is also an enhanced rate of protein catabolism. Branch chain amino acids, leucine, isoleucine and valine, are oxidized for energy, contributing between 5-15% of the energy used during aerobic exercise15. Since there are no labile stores of protein in the body, essential amino acids must be replaced through diet.

Physical activity necessitates an increase in metabolism, which in turn increases the need for energy. Fat is the most energy dense nutrient available to fulfill this need. Training in conjunction with higher fat diets has been shown to increase a dog’s capacity for using FFA by raising a dog’s carbohydrate threshold1. The carbohydrate threshold is the point at which dogs switch from aerobic FFA metabolism to aerobic carbohydrate metabolism. During moderately intense work, both FFA and carbohydrates are metabolized for energy. Feeding a high fat diet during training causes a shift in metabolism that elevates the threshold at which dog’s switch from FFA metabolism to carbohydrate metabolism. The advantage to this change is twofold. Fats have more energy per gram so each gram oxidized nets more fuel for exercise than carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are available in very limited supply in the body therefore sparing them is beneficial. Also, by feeding a higher fat diet during regular exercise, the amount of circulating FFA increases, providing a readily available energy source. Working dogs consuming higher fat diets respond to an exercise bout by releasing more FFA than dogs fed an isocaloric diet of lower fat content14. Finally, increased fat in a balanced diet has been shown to increase the maximal rate of fat oxidation by 20-30 % in dogs exercised at a moderate intensity (less than 75% VO2 max) which leads to an increased oxidative capacity16.

On the other hand, canine athletes in this category also may have short periods of more intense activity, requiring them to utilize muscle glycogen for energy. Appropriate feeding of carbohydrates can aid in maintaining and restoring muscle glycogen, as described elsewhere in this issue.

Like endurance dogs, intermediate canine athletes are susceptible to lipid peroxidation of membranes. Diets with extra antioxidants like vitamins E and C, and selenium would help to minimize excessive free radical production especially when dogs are consuming higher fat diets 13.

Practical Feeding Management of Intermediate Canine Athletes
As important as the nutrients to canine athletes are the feeding practices that are used to manage the delivery of those nutrients. Three things need to be considered when managing food intake in canine athletes- diet digestibility, hydration and feeding time.

Intermediate canine athletes can vary in energy requirements depending on the sport in which they are participating, the environmental conditions and the frequency of exercise. However, diet digestibility should be at least % in order for the dogs to effectively metabolize and use the nutrients supplied by the food without excess fecal bulk and for them to be able to ingest enough calories to meet energy needs while in training and competing in athletic events1. The more energy dense the food is, the less voluminous the stool, which is advantageous in exercising dogs. Kronfeld et al estimated that racing sled dogs with full colons were handicapped equivalent to a jockey and racehorse being assessed a 20 lb handicap5.

Hydration is important in exercising dogs for two reasons. Exercise is a heat producing activity and water is required to help dissipate heat. Work by Young demonstrated that about 60% of heat dissipated by dogs during exercise is through water evaporation in the respiratory tract17. Also, water is needed to remove the by-products of energy metabolism. It is very important to keep exercising dogs hydrated because this may be the most important determinant of endurance and performance1. Yet, in many cases, exercising dogs may be distracted by their task or the environment so are not motivated to drink. Specific care should be provided to encourage dogs to drink during extended periods of exercise. . Unlike humans, most dogs do not loose electrolytes during exercise because sweat is not a primary avenue for thermoregulation for dogs. Because most healthy dogs do not lose electrolytes, they do not benefit from electrolyte replacement drinks.
Summary
In summary, athletic dogs generally require more energy, protein and antioxidants than sedentary dogs. The extra nutrients required are directly related to the exercise intensity, frequency and duration. Most dogs that participate in canine athletic events are considered intermediate athletes who use a combination of aerobic and naerobic fuels. Though most of the research on the nutrient requirements of exercising dogs has been completed using either greyhounds or sled dogs, recommendations can still be drawn from this work and applied to intermediate canine athletes. Feeding management practices, including diet digestibility, hydration, and timing of feeding, are vitally important to canine athletes and can directly affect canine athletic performance.

 

 

 

 

[Phil Lloyd 10,736]

The feeding of lurchers has become really complicated...

I don't keep, performance dogs or racers and coursers,..just hedgerow mouchers. 

So,..I've always subscribed to the notion, that a little bit of everything, does ya good.

 I feed what I have, when I have it,..from the poor old horse to Chicken backs, raw green tripes and sheep paunches,  sardines and pilchards, duck eggs and offal...

And, always backed up, with a handful of quality,  complete food...

What more, can a humble rabbiter's jukel ask for,..or in fact,..really need...

 

[Daniel cain 42,788]

[prefabs 105]

Does anyone use one of the fish based complete foods and what are there thoughts on them 

 

[jake824 517]

9 hours ago, trigger2 said:

I am currently feeding wynstay home brand meaty mix dog food to mine. Now I’ve started to put some decent shifts in they will get fed dry along with a combination of table scraps and raw meat. I’ve fed some expensive dry foods  over the years, but imo they need a good intake of meat into there diet, on real hard nights out I’ve found my dogs tend to carry a little more stamina on a mixed meat and kibble diet than kibble alone. I’ve never fed just meat to see if that makes any difference to stamina levels as I believe there are things in kibble that meat alone doesn’t provide to keep a reasonably balanced diet.

I ve been feeding csj from wynstay for a year now . All the dogs do really well on it. They do a 20% protein called that ll do £13 a bag or tripe mix which is £22 .