The lurchers and long dogs of this day and age

[Dbod 58]

Hi all.

         well where do I start,here goes so I hope I don't bore you,nearly 45 years ago as a young lad growing up in the city and very little hobbies on offer for someone closing in on their teenage years,i knew a greyhound man that I walked his greyhounds and he brought me to the races and if his dogs won he would reward me with a extra few shillings for getting his dogs fit to win,through him I met a friend of his that kept ferrets and little did I ever think this would be the start of me getting into the hunting with dogs and ferrets,this chap was about 6 years older than me but I looked up to him like a big brother,he thought me everything from ferreting,long netting.gate netting, bushing with terriers to lamping with lurcher,in no time at all I was part of his hunting team which I enjoyed day in day out,he was the first person to give me my first lurcher,a whippet greyhound x collie greyhound,a 8 weeks old black and white bitch,[was a nightmare trying to convince my parents I would look after her and at that time I was a milkmans helper[delivering milk to houses in the early hours of the morning while most of the city was sleeping]it gave me pocked money but also helped me feed Sadie my lurcher,my best friend Paddy who I had know nearly a year became my mentor,he told me not to over tax my young lurcher bitch,let her grow and let her play as much as she wants he told me,but teach her things as she grows,like knowing what her legs were for apart from running,he got me to put obstacles from her run to the back door,started her small but increased it as she got bigger,in no time at all she was growing up,made roughly about 23 inches to the shoulder,and as sharp as razor,watched everything,but very keen to learn,well the day came that she picked up her first rabbit,it was a mixy rabbit but she picked it up and retrieved it back to my hand alive and squealing,,that was her interduction  to the hunting game,from that day she came on leaps and bounds,she seems to always be in the right place at the right time,rabbits rearly got 2 of 3 ft away from the cover before she nailed of if by chance she thought she could get them before they left the cover she would hit the cover hard,5 times out of 10 she succeeded, other time she came out sore with thorns in her,but she learned by her mistakes,took to lamping like a fish to water,she watched paddie,s bitch lamp,the mother of my bitch and between the two they accounted for a big haul of rabbits in one night,you would never go home empty handed with her weather there be a full moon or a real dark windy night,for the 12 years I had Sadie I never bred off her,Paddy told me that was as far as he would breed her unless you got the same x to cover her,apart from that I just hadn't the space as Paddy had got me a bushing terrier and a ferret to keep my hobby going,believe me lads all I did was eat drink sleep hunting,thought about nothing else but hunting,bushing with terrier and lurcher,ferretting with ferret terrier and lurcher and watch the weather on the telly to see if we were going to get a wet and windy night for a spot of lamping,Sorry lads I got a bit side tracked dreaming of days gone by,

anyway going back to the lurchers of this day and age,when I was a youngfellow,the most common lurcher out there was the collie x greyhound, or the 3/4 greyhound collie,the whippet greyhound or the 3/4 whippet 1/4 collie which was rare,that was as far as the lads I knew would breed,they never went and further,,they would never go on a breed a 7/8 greyhound 1/8 collie as most said that this breed kills the stamina,there were deerhound x greyhound first cross and 3/4 greyhound 1/4 deerhound but these were big rough haired dogs and most were renowned hare and fox killers,very few were good lampers,but some did make the grade, as the years went on the saluki came into the lurcher breeding,these saluki,s were bred for stamina and stamina they have,everything that was advertised in the buy and sell or Donedeal had saluki somewhere in its bloodline,most were renowned hare killers,i knew lads that had these breed in their lurchers,1/2 breds or 3/4 breds saluki greyhounds,most of these men that owned this type of dog said they were running machines but the fault they found with the saluki was their brain,very little of these dogs would retrieve back to hand,

Then along came the bull,half breds or three quarter breds,very gamey lurchers,too gamey for some as they found out the hard way as some if not most were bad fighters and nothing worse to have a breed of dog like this kill a good working terrier  weather it be in your back garden or out in the field, 

so on a finishing note lads,just a question for the lurcher men on here,i have seen a right few lurchers advertised here,some say the lurcher for sale is saluki x greyhound with a touch of bull,how do you breed a lurcher to get a touch of bull or someone advertised a while ago agoof a lurcher with 4/8 greyhound 1/8 deerhound 1/8 saluki 1/8 collie and 1/8 bull.can I ask how many times must you breed a lurcher to a lurcher to get this type of lurcher,in my time if you bred a lurcher to a lurcher you get a lurcher and the more breeds in either dogs just meant more litter wastage and in my opinion if I was breeding a lurcher to a lurcher from difference breeds after the third time I would be introducing back greyhound blood .,

[THE STIFFMEISTER 14,553]

I haven’t read all that mate , just skimmed it 

It’s always an amazing thing when you read things about how lads got into the game as nO matter  where your from , it’s always similar 

as for the end , I often question why you should need to breed greyhound into any type of lurcher these days when you could argue that other than blistering pace , a well bred fat coursing type will bring more to the party 

[keepitcovert 842]

Greyhound or whippet the speedy building blocks in lurcher breeding, not forgetting the saluki, But for me what the hell is this percentages crap about genetics is not that simple it does not follow the rules that some people try to breed to. Working lurcher to working lurcher breeding usually produces the goods. The point i am making is its not all about physical attributes to a dogs breeding, but more about its mental attitude that you should be trying to breed into them. YIS KIC

[abrasivewheel 53]

There was not that many lurchers about 40 years ago and even less just after the war the farther back you go the less numerous they are . Hence I assume the popularity of collie x greyhound or whippet collie x . Fast forward too today and lurchers of all breeds types etc proliferate.  You only have to look in the local dog pounds in your area or the number of lurcher sight hound re home and rescue centres . All I will say is when I started out it was lurcher x lurcher with both dogs having the rep on doing the business and you was lucky to enter this circle and acquire a dog and you made do as you was right down the pecking order when it came too picks .they may breed there bitch maybe 3 times max in a lifetime or be only willing to line there dog to a bitch with a good rep . As for 1/3rd this with 5/8 of that and a 1/4 thrown in for good measure its warbles unless you can trace the line back decades and breed close you still even then will throw variations in size build coat intelligence etc . That's how nature works .

[Blackmag 5,862]

I think you got the bit about the bull  xs wrong bod some of the best temperament i have seen have been bull xs because most are socialized properly from a early age yes you may get a exception to the rule but that goes for any x and most lurchers could kill a terrier 

[poxon 5,555]

I’m not really to clued up to much on breeding I’ve dabbled but I’m a terrible observer an take mental note I’m a believer in working Lurchers should alway be put in an out of racey bred an heavy base blood working Lurchers to produce working dogs the only people that normally hit a Lurcher mix with greyhound are show people that want to produce a dog to be a fast racer and have conformation for showing most tend to produce thick as pig shit dogs that break easily I’ve always been a percentages guy I like to know what’s in them percentage wise base blood and sight hound wise I’ve got 3generations in with what I keep I’ve not a clue about the percentage of my current pup is I suppose I could sit down An work it all out but it changes nothing. I personally think the only time straight greyhound should be added to a working dog when the breeding has gone to far An anything being produced has become to cloddy an slow I think by adding greyhound your cancelling it all out an starting again from a fresh,scratch but instead of using a normal working base blood your using a working mongrel as a base blood to keep the ball rolling but to be honest I’d just put a racey bred Lurcher back in rather than a greyhound tbh or even a long dog or another coursing type that actually works 

[Gilbey 1,405]

24 minutes ago, poxon said:

I’m not really to clued up to much on breeding I’ve dabbled but I’m a terrible observer an take mental note I’m a believer in working Lurchers should alway be put in an out of racey bred an heavy base blood working Lurchers to produce working dogs the only people that normally hit a Lurcher mix with greyhound are show people that want to produce a dog to be a fast racer and have conformation for showing most tend to produce thick as pig shit dogs that break easily I’ve always been a percentages guy I like to know what’s in them percentage wise base blood and sight hound wise I’ve got 3generations in with what I keep I’ve not a clue about the percentage of my current pup is I suppose I could sit down An work it all out but it changes nothing. I personally think the only time straight greyhound should be added to a working dog when the breeding has gone to far An anything being produced has become to cloddy an slow I think by adding greyhound your cancelling it all out an starting again from a fresh,scratch but instead of using a normal working base blood your using a working mongrel as a base blood to keep the ball rolling but to be honest I’d just put a racey bred Lurcher back in rather than a greyhound tbh or even a long dog or another coursing type that actually works 

don't know if you've forgotten mate, but just recently you were on about using a greyhound on one of yours in the future

[Gilbey 1,405]

1 hour ago, Blackmag said:

I think you got the bit about the bull  xs wrong bod some of the best temperament i have seen have been bull xs because most are socialized properly from a early age yes you may get a exception to the rule but that goes for any x and most lurchers could kill a terrier 

nowt like stereotyping think he's got the other breed wrong personally

[Dbod 58]

Lads.years ago in my day the starting point of lurcher breeding was the Greyhound [for speed] and the Collie[ for brain stamina and better coat and good feet],the first cross were great ferreting companion and bushing with terriers and not bad on the lamp either,but the just lacked that burst of speed when they needed it,there was a few that had everything you needed in a lurcher but these were rare,the next cross was the greyhound x greyhound collie,a nice powerhouse of a lurcher ,loads of speed,you lost in stamina a bit but these racey type lurchers could do their job and do it well,and they still had a bit of collie brain in them,which was good and bad in some collie bred lurchers,...for example I knew a guy who bred 3/4 bred greyhound  collies,nearly all could do the jobs most lurchers are bred for,but as they got older they got more cuter and if I hare rose about 200  yards ahead of them they would watch it go but wouldn't even bother give it a spin,or if you hunted it with another dog and a hare rose and both gave chase the collie hound would lay back and let the other dog do the work and when the hare was turned back into it she would chance a pick up,

the next were whippet x greyhound,here we had loads of speed and a little stamina to keep them going that extra mile on a good nights lamping and further breeding of the whippet greyhound  x whippet to bring the size down a little but keep the speed and stamina as most cross bred lurchers have,and then crossing a 3/4 bred whippet greyhound to a 3/4 bred collie greyhound or ever a half bred collie hound to a 3/4 bred whippet hound was the way to go,but that was as far most lurcher men of that time would go ,any further breeding could only breed maybe full bred whippets or greyhounds,and if by chance you got a all rounder well this was like winning the lottery,

as I said in a earlier post,to produce a 1/8 this and a 1/8 that and 2/8 this and 3 /8 that,well in my theory this would take a lot of breeding dogs to produce this,if you have a good one and you find some one has one similar breeding to yours then I think maybe that's the way to go and producing your own type you want into your ideal lurcher,

[poxon 5,555]

1 hour ago, Gilbey said:

don't know if you've forgotten mate, but just recently you were on about using a greyhound on one of yours in the future

I’ve not forgotten mate you are correct with what you say I’ve said that but That’s one of many options out there for me but can’t see me using a greyhound tbh it’s just a option for the heavy base blooded one as I’ve put my self in a good situation with the 2 I’ve got as ones racey bred an the other is heavy base blooded but more than likely there go back to a close relative but it all depends on what one is worth breeding any replacements out of they might turn out turds yet it’s still very very early days to be thinking to hard about breeding replacements so it’s all just thoughts in my ideal world I’d go back to the grand sire that’s the great grand sire to the other one but I can’t see it happening as he’s about 13 now but who knows I might need to start from scratch

[Dbod 58]

3 hours ago, Blackmag said:

I think you got the bit about the bull  xs wrong bod some of the best temperament i have seen have been bull xs because most are socialized properly from a early age yes you may get a exception to the rule but that goes for any x and most lurchers could kill a terrier 

I didn't mean every bull x Blackmag,but I meant to say I have seen a few straight crosses bull x greyhound that would take any game and if things were a big quiet in the field they would be rearing to fight weather it be a terrier of lurcher,i thing it all depends as you say on the upbringing of the pup and the breed of bull you use

[poxon 5,555]

6 minutes ago, Dbod said:

Lads.years ago in my day the starting point of lurcher breeding was the Greyhound [for speed] and the Collie[ for brain stamina and better coat and good feet],the first cross were great ferreting companion and bushing with terriers and not bad on the lamp either,but the just lacked that burst of speed when they needed it,there was a few that had everything you needed in a lurcher but these were rare,the next cross was the greyhound x greyhound collie,a nice powerhouse of a lurcher ,loads of speed,you lost in stamina a bit but these racey type lurchers could do their job and do it well,and they still had a bit of collie brain in them,which was good and bad in some collie bred lurchers,...for example I knew a guy who bred 3/4 bred greyhound  collies,nearly all could do the jobs most lurchers are bred for,but as they got older they got more cuter and if I hare rose about 200  yards ahead of them they would watch it go but wouldn't even bother give it a spin,or if you hunted it with another dog and a hare rose and both gave chase the collie hound would lay back and let the other dog do the work and when the hare was turned back into it she would chance a pick up,

the next were whippet x greyhound,here we had loads of speed and a little stamina to keep them going that extra mile on a good nights lamping and further breeding of the whippet greyhound  x whippet to bring the size down a little but keep the speed and stamina as most cross bred lurchers have,and then crossing a 3/4 bred whippet greyhound to a 3/4 bred collie greyhound or ever a half bred collie hound to a 3/4 bred whippet hound was the way to go,but that was as far most lurcher men of that time would go ,any further breeding could only breed maybe full bred whippets or greyhounds,and if by chance you got a all rounder well this was like winning the lottery,

as I said in a earlier post,to produce a 1/8 this and a 1/8 that and 2/8 this and 3 /8 that,well in my theory this would take a lot of breeding dogs to produce this,if you have a good one and you find some one has one similar breeding to yours then I think maybe that's the way to go and producing your own type you want into your ideal lurcher,

I agree with this fella especially the last bit 

Edited August 22, 2019 by poxon

[Dbod 58]

• A friend of mine is in a breeding program with his wheaton greyhound cross,he started with a working wheaton put across a big coursing greyhound,he kept two bitches from this litter and two years later he bred the best of the two and he put a greyhound cross her,he kept one bitch and one dog from this litter and when they bitch was over 2 years old he bred her with her father,he told me he will keep a full record of his breeding and every couple of years he will breed the best of his bitches with his stud dog which is a 3/4 bred wheaton greyhound,so the way it looks now is father to daughter,then father to grand daughter then father to great grand daughter,till he produces the breed he started from,....I think that's the way he told me,so far they pups I seen in his kennels are looking like racey wheaton greyhounds...and the parents of these pups do the job and do it very well.if you know what I mean lads 

[Gilbey 1,405]

22 minutes ago, poxon said:

I’ve not forgotten mate you are correct with what you say I’ve said that but That’s one of many options out there for me but can’t see me using a greyhound tbh it’s just a option for the heavy base blooded one as I’ve put my self in a good situation with the 2 I’ve got as ones racey bred an the other is heavy base blooded but more than likely there go back to a close relative but it all depends on what one is worth breeding any replacements out of they might turn out turds yet it’s still very very early days to be thinking to hard about breeding replacements so it’s all just thoughts in my ideal world I’d go back to the grand sire that’s the great grand sire to the other one but I can’t see it happening as he’s about 13 now but who knows I might need to start from scratch

always think its a shame when folk water down gens of breeding, id stick to lurcher or courser personally

[Gilbey 1,405]

29 minutes ago, Dbod said:

Lads.years ago in my day the starting point of lurcher breeding was the Greyhound [for speed] and the Collie[ for brain stamina and better coat and good feet],the first cross were great ferreting companion and bushing with terriers and not bad on the lamp either,but the just lacked that burst of speed when they needed it,there was a few that had everything you needed in a lurcher but these were rare,the next cross was the greyhound x greyhound collie,a nice powerhouse of a lurcher ,loads of speed,you lost in stamina a bit but these racey type lurchers could do their job and do it well,and they still had a bit of collie brain in them,which was good and bad in some collie bred lurchers,...for example I knew a guy who bred 3/4 bred greyhound  collies,nearly all could do the jobs most lurchers are bred for,but as they got older they got more cuter and if I hare rose about 200  yards ahead of them they would watch it go but wouldn't even bother give it a spin,or if you hunted it with another dog and a hare rose and both gave chase the collie hound would lay back and let the other dog do the work and when the hare was turned back into it she would chance a pick up,

the next were whippet x greyhound,here we had loads of speed and a little stamina to keep them going that extra mile on a good nights lamping and further breeding of the whippet greyhound  x whippet to bring the size down a little but keep the speed and stamina as most cross bred lurchers have,and then crossing a 3/4 bred whippet greyhound to a 3/4 bred collie greyhound or ever a half bred collie hound to a 3/4 bred whippet hound was the way to go,but that was as far most lurcher men of that time would go ,any further breeding could only breed maybe full bred whippets or greyhounds,and if by chance you got a all rounder well this was like winning the lottery,

as I said in a earlier post,to produce a 1/8 this and a 1/8 that and 2/8 this and 3 /8 that,well in my theory this would take a lot of breeding dogs to produce this,if you have a good one and you find some one has one similar breeding to yours then I think maybe that's the way to go and producing your own type you want into your ideal lurcher,

its not a lot of breeding, take dogs from your posts. Say a fella has a class deer/grey x collie/grey and his mate has a good whip/grey. The pups to me would be lurchers, to some they would be 1/8 deer 1/8 collie 1/4 whip 1/2 grey and no better or worse than something with less breeds in it