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2 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Its only sporting hardness though Len.....Mike Tyson might shit himself and run for the hills if he had to run into a burning building,or bring kids up alone,or see out a long prison sentance and stay sane.....i just think sport is the wrong place to look for the type of words we are using.

I thought it was only about the Lenny mcclean, roy shaw type thread, although I could be mistaken?

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3 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Its just such a terrible description...." hard "....im just talking in the context that i think its being used in this topic.

I agree its the ability to endure.....but obviously endurance is only a small part.....even if a man can endure suffering,can he overcome it.....its a little bit like gameness in a physical fight anyone can stand there and get there head beaten in that doesnt show gameness it just shows mettle and endurance......when he not just takes the beating but also tries to be the victor that for me is gameness.....hence i like the expression " a game dog always thinks he is winning "

By less sensitive to it do you mean doesnt have a prerequisite for it,not used to it,no experience of it etc.....or that its just not in their dna so to speak.....if 2 people fight to the death and ones natural fight or flight mechanism is to fight and the others is flight then naturally the one who wanted to f**k off was the braver man ?....if indeed thats what you mean.

 

I'm just doing what I always do and 'thinking' stuff to pieces. :laugh: I get ya and I agree at that, I suppose, 'layman's' level of the word.

Fighting (in the abstract sense of the word, might be combat, might be cancer) to win goes without saying I think. So by 'endure' I mean to see through whatever is inflicted in the accomplishment of that win. So in that respect, the question I have regarding hardness is,

"is a man who goes through the same blows, but isn't as effected by them because nature made him less sensitive, any less hard than the man who overcomes his natural sensitivity to them blows to achieve the same win?"

Both fighters have both been hit with the same blows but one is better built (possibly physically and mentally/emotionally) to deal with them, what I would term 'less sensitive', and so suffers less. Both fighters achieve their win. Which one is harder? The man that had to overcome his natural weaknesses or the man who nature built to suffer such hardship with greater ease?

The more I think about it the more I'm not sure. :hmm: I think we could at least agree on which has had to display the most grit. Not necessarily which has the most grit, because neither have been forced to fail in this thought experiment.

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4 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

I'm just doing what I always do and 'thinking' stuff to pieces. :laugh: I get ya and I agree at that, I suppose, 'layman's' level of the word.

Fighting (in the abstract sense of the word, might be combat, might be cancer) to win goes without saying I think. So by 'endure' I mean to see through whatever is inflicted in the accomplishment of that win. So in that respect, the question I have regarding hardness is,

"is a man who goes through the same blows, but isn't as effected by them because nature made him less sensitive, any less hard than the man who overcomes his natural sensitivity to them blows to achieve the same win?"

Both fighters have both been hit with the same blows but one is better built (possibly physically and mentally/emotionally) to deal with them, what I would term 'less sensitive', and so suffers less. Both fighters achieve their win. Which one is harder? The man that had to overcome his natural weaknesses or the man who nature built to suffer such hardship with greater ease?

The more I think about it the more I'm not sure. :hmm: I think we could at least agree on which has had to display the most grit. Not necessarily which has the most grit, because neither have been forced to fail in this thought experiment.

It would be the person that had to endure more yet still succeeded. 

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53 minutes ago, Jobi said:

Resilient a better word Stan? 

No mate ,you can be resilient ,tough ,durable ,brave ,stoic ,or have many more attributes ,but if you can t win afight then some will say your not "hard " ....it's just too silly a word to define things ,...what most folk mean is just listing the attributes they admire ,but words matter ,as the young fella pointed out there is a big difference between ,bravery and gameness ,

For myself I admire ,,(think it's ard ) if when life throws the unknown at you ,when you find yourself on the wrong side of he order/chaos spectrum ,when one is out of thier depth ,physically  and mentally ...then the person who strives to overcome rather than endure would earn the epiteph "hard " from me .

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17 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

I'm just doing what I always do and 'thinking' stuff to pieces. :laugh: I get ya and I agree at that, I suppose, 'layman's' level of the word.

Fighting (in the abstract sense of the word, might be combat, might be cancer) to win goes without saying I think. So by 'endure' I mean to see through whatever is inflicted in the accomplishment of that win. So in that respect, the question I have regarding hardness is,

"is a man who goes through the same blows, but isn't as effected by them because nature made him less sensitive, any less hard than the man who overcomes his natural sensitivity to them blows to achieve the same win?"

Both fighters have both been hit with the same blows but one is better built (possibly physically and mentally/emotionally) to deal with them, what I would term 'less sensitive', and so suffers less. Both fighters achieve their win. Which one is harder? The man that had to overcome his natural weaknesses or the man who nature built to suffer such hardship with greater ease?

The more I think about it the more I'm not sure. :hmm: I think we could at least agree on which has had to display the most grit. Not necessarily which has the most grit, because neither have been forced to fail in this thought experiment.

The underdog is always going to receive more recognition.....but does that actually make him " harder ".........i dont know.....often convos like this become a play on words i just think the man who reaches the furthest place away from what nature gave him is the bigger achiever....make of that what you will ?

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3 hours ago, gnasher16 said:

The Millwall fan is a good shout he showed immense spirit and fortitude...im sure a massive rush of adrenaline didnt hurt either.

But the others mentioned like boxers and explorers i completely disagree i dont see anything " hard " about being in positions a - of your own choosing....b - that you are being paid for....and c - that you are already good at....sport is sport.

 

That training and metal fortitude can easily wash over into normal life. I've been in a couple of situations (mostly swimming in the sea) where I found myself in a position where panic has started to set in. In that situation , I always revert in my mind, to the training I was doing for Thai boxing and hear the voice of my trainer saying "calm your mind" this, I believe has saved my life on at least 3 occasions and yet I always go back in ?

Just because training allows someone to do it inside of their given arena, doesn't mean their mind allows it outside. That's a whole different thing imo.

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Just now, lurcherman 887 said:

Lenny was just a bully he shit himself  round the proper london firms. A tough rough man though none the less.. 

I just thought that’s the type the thread was on about, hence why I said about trained fighters being far higher up the spectrum

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1 hour ago, mushroom said:

That training and metal fortitude can easily wash over into normal life. I've been in a couple of situations (mostly swimming in the sea) where I found myself in a position where panic has started to set in. In that situation , I always revert in my mind, to the training I was doing for Thai boxing and hear the voice of my trainer saying "calm your mind" this, I believe has saved my life on at least 3 occasions and yet I always go back in ?

Just because training allows someone to do it inside of their given arena, doesn't mean their mind allows it outside. That's a whole different thing imo.

I didn't think you were aloud in the sea without your wings on ??

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