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Early Kerry Blue Litter in the 20's.jpg

Same litter would be split into Kerry Blue, Wheaton and Irish, the B&T could pass as Irish back then. The RED coat came later.

Irish Terrier  B&T 1910.jpg

Irish Terrier 1910

KBT-1916.jpg

KBT Trialled 1960.jpg

Kerry Blue/ Wheaton were trialled up to the 60's. and some later but the working numbers were not being produced.

The Staffs became the dog of choice. (Love the way the staff in the centre is waiting his chance to cling that Kerry Blue.)

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That old Bucks Otter Hounds print is one of my absolute favourite otter hunting prints. They were originally produced as a fund raiser for the B.O.H. and if my memory serves me right were at that time

White terriers of old       Kilkenny, Ireland 1908        

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13 minutes ago, p3d said:

Early Kerry Blue Litter in the 20's.jpg

Same litter would be split into Kerry Blue, Wheaton and Irish, the B&T could pass as Irish back then. The RED coat came later.

Irish Terrier  B&T 1910.jpg

Irish Terrier 1910

KBT-1916.jpg

KBT Trialled 1960.jpg

Kerry Blue/ Wheaton were trialled up to the 60's. and some later but the working numbers were not being produced.

The Staffs became the dog of choice. (Love the way the staff in the centre is waiting his chance to cling that Kerry Blue.)

Never saw those first 3 pics before p3d, by the looks of them you could see how the Irish terrier and Kerry Blue may well have played their part in the creation of the Lakeland/Fell/Patterdale..

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KS

Go back that far and they were basically all from the same pot.

 

1906 photo of Tommy Dobson i don't recall seeing before, with a broken terrier to the right.jpg

1906 Tommy Dobson with a White terrier (Marking on head and tail stem, where have we seen that before)

apt 01.jpg

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935849215_Dobsonin1892withhisyoungproteg.jpg.b51a712ef6d1ac1324f4bdfe67f2f011.jpg1387014673_Tommy(2ndfromright)withhisEskdalePack.jpg.7bc7ce0ecf3cd71a3fbe4ae4778a8b44.jpg

TommyDobson_1053.jpg.3b9ca907a84b63cea01905f7a8a2639b.jpg1214203487_TommyDobson-DandieLakeyRussell.jpg.991771227eca76931625fef6d6b4f72d.jpg

From 1892 to his death Tommy had a mixture of all types of terriers. White, Border/ lakey types, smooth/Rough.

Like any huntsman, Good working terriers are hard to come by, back then and now. Use what works.

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35 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

P3D, what year (roughly) do you think the first black terriers, as we know them today, appeared?

RH,

You can find photos of smooth black terriers back 100 years, but there is no mention of a line of smooth coated dogs as we see them today before the 70's

Hugh-Lowther-with-dogs-Carlton-House-Terrace1.jpg.82d5a4e8d36024ffa63b00365cd55cc8.jpg

All of the photographs of working terriers appeared to be Fell/Lakey/Border type (Red, B&T, Black, White) or Russell/Fox/Sealyham type. (White with hound type markings).

The hunting writers of the time (pre 60's) mention every line and type, but I have never seen any mention of a smooth coloured line of working terriers.

Dogs like Smithy and Nigger seem to have come along and were bred to hundreds of bitches, then the black smooth line took off. 1970?

I have in front of me a list of terriers entered in a working trial in the 80's in Cork Ireland, there are all of the working types you could think of, but no patterdale or Smooth black dog. I hunted back then with men who had contacts in the UK. They brought over many types. I never saw a smooth black dog back then. Do you think if there was a line of great smooth black dogs available that they would not have tried them.

Breay and Buck did not breed that line, they outcrossed too often to lock in any defined type. it was someone after them. JMO

841591772_Breay101.png.40d1295d358341004f77625c37785b55.png

Is that dog on the left Smooth enough, compared to the other 4 fell types?

Did the smooth coat come from a dog like this crossed with a fell?

816754355_Breay100.jpg.2987c9dc16f75e0d75ff6e75659e6bfd.jpg

Don't want to go off in a tangent from B'11s post of old photos.

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I have posted this before on THL but have always loved the photograph. I find it interesting on several levels. Not least being the quality of the terriers. I have no doubt that they were the Fox Terrier of the day. How could breeders and judges of the present Fox Terrier compare the dogs in this picture with their own and think that they have improved them? To me it beggars belief.

old scanned pic 001.jpg

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