Jump to content

Recommended Posts

22 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

As long as you promise that Frain will be drawing no pictures, I’ll take one😁

i may risk a few of my own :) 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

25 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

Also once Breay started breeding this type,  all of a sudden Buck, Westmoreland, Bell and further on Gould, Nuttall, Stacey had this type, what’s the chances of that?? The black type took off like a rocket. Why didn’t it take off before then?

id say it blacks and reds where not as popular back then due to whites where easier to spot running lose on the fells and moors and working rock piles

or was it because black and reds where always a more mute terriers and not a great baying terrier or was it just that they where shit at the time

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

Also once Breay started breeding this type,  all of a sudden Buck, Westmoreland, Bell and further on Gould, Nuttall, Stacey had this type, what’s the chances of that?? The black type took off like a rocket. Why didn’t it take off before then?

Breay and Buck were friends (of a sort) and used each others terriers to breed from.

Westmoorland was a friend of Breay. Maurice Bell knew both Breay and Buck and hunted with Buck as a youngster. Nuttall went looking for Breay when he was a youngster because he had heard how good his terriers were and Breay took a shine to him and sold him one. Stacey i have no idea about and Gouldy knew his market and simply cashed in....

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, Bosun11 said:

Breay and Buck were friends (of a sort) and used each others terriers to breed from.

Westmoorland was a friend of Breay. Maurice Bell knew both Breay and Buck and hunted with Buck as a youngster. Nuttall went looking for Breay when he was a youngster because he had heard how good his terriers were and Breay took a shine to him and sold him one. Stacey i have no idea about and Gouldy knew his market and simply cashed in....

The way I see it Bosun, if Glyn had posted that pic at the start and you had explained all this not long after, then I’d never have posted on the matter to begin with.😂

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Bosun11 said:

Breay and Buck were friends (of a sort) and used each others terriers to breed from.

Westmoorland was a friend of Breay. Maurice Bell knew both Breay and Buck and hunted with Buck as a youngster. Nuttall went looking for Breay when he was a youngster because he had heard how good his terriers were and Breay took a shine to him and sold him one. Stacey i have no idea about and Gouldy knew his market and simply cashed in....

Brain got nothing directly from Breay, , he told me he only ever met Breay once while stood on a bridge on a otter hunt where only a hello was exchanged , he used Davey , Kipper  at stud , gotta  bitch named Biddy off Westmoorland and used Rusty for stud when Rusty went to Westmoorland after Mr Breays death 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Glyn..... said:

Brain got nothing directly from Breay, , he told me he only ever met Breay once while stood on a bridge on a otter hunt where only a hello was exchanged , he used Davey , Kipper  at stud , gotta  bitch named Biddy off Westmoorland and used Rusty for stud when Rusty went to Westmoorland after Mr Breays death 

some good info on here its been interesting reading

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Mixedgrill said:

 wonder how much ken Was charging for a service back then?  Bet he made some poppy out of his dogs 👍

25 quid a go ..

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, milliken said:

some good info on here its been interesting reading

Don't believe everything you read, I was told.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
22 hours ago, Glyn..... said:

Brain got nothing directly from Breay, , he told me he only ever met Breay once while stood on a bridge on a otter hunt where only a hello was exchanged , he used Davey , Kipper  at stud , gotta  bitch named Biddy off Westmoorland and used Rusty for stud when Rusty went to Westmoorland after Mr Breays death 

Sounds right Glyn, I stand corrected.

I knew Brian had met Breay, I've been present on a couple of his talk nights years ago. Though i thought he went up to meet him and Brian's terrier history did change from talk to talk.... đŸ€„

Maybe its Park i'm getting confused with?

Share this post


Link to post
On 03/06/2019 at 11:44, rob284 said:

Some difference in the head shape of those bedlingtons to today’s type, the dogs in the picture are well put together, near border like👍

I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in  up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol  and Southampton if I remember rightly  ) industrial places  for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow. 

The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there. 

Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I went to the odd talk night with nuttal years back myself and then chatting to him at his place the odd story would change, but hey we can't remember everything all the time haha even I've been reminded how some of my dogs were bred years ago by other people and dogs I bred that I'd forgot about. 😳

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
53 minutes ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in  up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol  and Southampton if I remember rightly  ) industrial places  for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow. 

The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there. 

Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it 

The Irish, border, lakey, beddy. They all probably decent from some cross bred type used in both the north and Ireland and they changed over time when people bred for purpose or show. I wouldn’t say no dog originated from one place, just like the patterdale, as there is always more than one person breeding a type at the same time. But your right, Whitehaven was a big port at one time and it would have been a place where plenty travelled through bringing and taking dogs with them. 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in  up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol  and Southampton if I remember rightly  ) industrial places  for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow. 

The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there. 

Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it 

They may have been crossed a long time a ago but the Northern terrier goes back further than any breed that the Irish developed.

The Wheaten, Kerry and Glen are the same dog, just separated for coat colour and a dwarf gene in the Glens. Even early photographs show a dog that was too big to go to ground. The names are made up, there was never any terrier bred in the Glen of Imaal.

The Irish terrier we can see in early photographs and documents was a very small dog, around 6lb to 12 lb. Yorkshire terrier size. If really game then a handy digging dog. The Show people bred in a Welsh terrier to get the shape they wanted and the size increased. The dogs were 28lbs in a matter of 20-30 years. Useless as a digging dog. 

As in Southern England the only real working Irish terrier is a small white Jack Russel type. Several very old paintings show this type, long before Rev Russell started hunting.. Probably bred and worked for Fox hunting by the Irish landed gentry just as in England. Those terriers were probably drafted around as often as Hounds were between these wealthy men. Over and back the Irish sea with hunting bloodstock.

If you look at Dobsons rough looking tykes, Prick ears, scrappy coats, they may have been this old Irish - Yorkshire terrier style. Not comparing his dogs to the shite show pets today but the original type.

The Bedlington was too big, The first Borders look exactly like the first Irish, Welsh,and old Black and Tan type. That is the nearest we can get to a root stock as far as I can see. JMO

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×