22lr first shooting help

[Alsone 789]

Deker, I've spent plenty of time in the field with .22LR and military range safety procedures are exactly transferable to the field. They're far more stringent than most shooters practice as I'm sure you know. Basic principles such as being aware of where a gun is pointing at all times even when believed to be unloaded and safe, including with rifles elevation (because of the 1.5 mile safety range of .22LR), (which is something every field shooter should be aware of anyway), and clearing a gun properly and safely using the magazine removal, 3 cycle rule and a visual check are just 2 examples of range safety procedures that transfer anywhere. In the field there are additional rules such as procedures for crossing over gates etc. But military range procedure is far more stringent than what the average civilian knows how to practice, unless trained or shown by a military trainer. Also, just because I don't currently have good reason for an FAC currently doesn't mean I haven't had plenty of .22LR experience outside of a range. You're making assumptions. You are correct in that I have fired military weapons on the range including as you realised the Belgium made FN FAL 7.62 semi-auto, commonly known as the British SLR sleeved down to .22 for range use, and yes, you're highly unlikely to ever experience a ricochet on a properly designed range.

I still hold my opinion on .22LR though, and if you don't agree, that's fine. We can agree to disagree on .22LR's propensity to ricochet. Suffice to say, I'm not personally a fan, although I do appreciate there are things .22LR can do well, that other calibres can't, moderation being the main one.

[Deker 3,450]

29 minutes ago, Alsone said:

Deker, I've spent plenty of time in the field with .22LR and military range safety procedures are exactly transferable to the field. They're far more stringent than most shooters practice as I'm sure you know. Basic principles such as being aware of where a gun is pointing at all times even when believed to be unloaded and safe, including with rifles elevation (because of the 1.5 mile safety range of .22LR), (which is something every field shooter should be aware of anyway), and clearing a gun properly and safely using the magazine removal, 3 cycle rule and a visual check are just 2 examples of range safety procedures that transfer anywhere. In the field there are additional rules such as procedures for crossing over gates etc. But military range procedure is far more stringent than what the average civilian knows how to practice, unless trained or shown by a military trainer. Also, just because I don't currently have good reason for an FAC currently doesn't mean I haven't had plenty of .22LR experience outside of a range. You're making assumptions. You are correct in that I have fired military weapons on the range including as you realised the Belgium made FN FAL 7.62 semi-auto, commonly known as the British SLR sleeved down to .22 for range use, and yes, you're highly unlikely to ever experience a ricochet on a properly designed range.

I still hold my opinion on .22LR though, and if you don't agree, that's fine. We can agree to disagree on .22LR's propensity to ricochet. Suffice to say, I'm not personally a fan, although I do appreciate there are things .22LR can do well, that other calibres can't, moderation being the main one.

If you have spent plenty of time in the field with a .22lr then you can make a case for a FAC.

You seem to live in a bubble of self belief, based on what you read, shooting in the field is a world away from shooting on a range, military or otherwise.      If you had any particular experience of both you would know, and not be lecturing about being some sort of highly trained field expert because you read a few Range Safety rules! 

Kindly do not attempt to lecture me on the subject, in case you didn't notice, I am a Qualified RCO, so I happen to know, I control Military ranges, Firing points and everything the job entails, I don't just read about it.

May I also suggest, if you are not a fan of the .22lr then you give up shooting it.

Have a nice night in reading.

 

 

[Davetyler 26]

Thanks you guys for a lot of good reading, i am going to put a few theorys to test and see what happens to the bullets fiering at different ranges. I can build a big box around a target and see what happens as i think after hitting a hard object it will lose a lot of power and will be tumbling more than going to be like a bat out of hell ripping through anything in its way.

I know people have a lot of opinions in this world and i know that at the end of the day it is me pulling the trigger. An without knowing the round (in a field experience) i do with an air rifle and really getting on with my 17hmr and fac air. Ive just heard so many bad thing about the lr, but in theory they cant be really bad otherwise they wouldnt advise it for starter rimfire and ive never heard of people getting seriously hurt. I got hit 5 times off my dads rimfire (now mine) when we was hitting a steel plate 30 yards infront of us and they came back and hit my legs. I only had a pair of thin craghoppers on and it did not hurt. I could tell i got hit off one as it shocked me but like i said out on the field it is completely new  

[Alsone 789]

2 hours ago, Deker said:

If you have spent plenty of time in the field with a .22lr then you can make a case for a FAC.

You seem to live in a bubble of self belief, based on what you read, shooting in the field is a world away from shooting on a range, military or otherwise.      If you had any particular experience of both you would know, and not be lecturing about being some sort of highly trained field expert because you read a few Range Safety rules! 

I can't make a case for an FAC because I have no land over which to shoot which means no good reason. Nor can I afford the equipment to shoot atm. 

One your second point, it's not based on reading, although maybe you should read as on practically every forum other than this, ricochet from .22LR is discussed at length as it is with many experts.That's hundreds of experienced shooters who disagree with you. Sometimes it seems Deker than no-one can hold a view different to yours.  I have plenty of experience with .22LR. I don't like it from a ricochet pov period. Your welcome to your view, but that is mine, and we beg to differ. Please feel free to love your .22RF. It has it's place and for some uses it can't be bettered, even I would use it, but equally your view and mine on it's propensity to ricochet are different.

I'm not even going to justify the safety pov. Suffice to say I've been properly trained and know what I'm doing on both range and field That said, I'd never rule out learning in either the field, range or online video. You joke about online sources, but there are plenty of video sources of people making mistakes that make you learn a little bit more caution everyday. To some they may be fun and something to laugh at, but there's nearly always a lesson in every one. In the field and on the range, it never hurts to learn from others.

Dave, if you want to test for ricochets, easy way is to get your hands on some tracer ammunition. It's rare in the UK and expensive but exists. I think RWS used to make some. Although you can see it in the day, at dusk, dawn or night, it really comes into it's own in showing what your shots are really doing. You'd be surprised sometimes as even without a crack, bullets can go astray. 

At the risk of further criticism of Deker for using reading or online media, here's a little something of interest - .22 tracer.

I'd call that rather a high ratio of ricochet to shots - still think .22LR isn't prone?:

 

 

 

[Deker 3,450]

18 hours ago, Alsone said:

I can't make a case for an FAC because I have no land over which to shoot which means no good reason. Nor can I afford the equipment to shoot atm. 

One your second point, it's not based on reading, although maybe you should read as on practically every forum other than this, ricochet from .22LR is discussed at length as it is with many experts.That's hundreds of experienced shooters who disagree with you. Sometimes it seems Deker than no-one can hold a view different to yours.  I have plenty of experience with .22LR. I don't like it from a ricochet pov period. Your welcome to your view, but that is mine, and we beg to differ. Please feel free to love your .22RF. It has it's place and for some uses it can't be bettered, even I would use it, but equally your view and mine on it's propensity to ricochet are different.

I'm not even going to justify the safety pov. Suffice to say I've been properly trained and know what I'm doing on both range and field That said, I'd never rule out learning in either the field, range or online video. You joke about online sources, but there are plenty of video sources of people making mistakes that make you learn a little bit more caution everyday. To some they may be fun and something to laugh at, but there's nearly always a lesson in every one. In the field and on the range, it never hurts to learn from others.

Dave, if you want to test for ricochets, easy way is to get your hands on some tracer ammunition. It's rare in the UK and expensive but exists. I think RWS used to make some. Although you can see it in the day, at dusk, dawn or night, it really comes into it's own in showing what your shots are really doing. You'd be surprised sometimes as even without a crack, bullets can go astray. 

At the risk of further criticism of Deker for using reading or online media, here's a little something of interest - .22 tracer.

I'd call that rather a high ratio of ricochet to shots - still think .22LR isn't prone?:

 

 

 

"I can't make a case for an FAC because I have no land over which to shoot which means no good reason. Nor can I afford the equipment to shoot atm."

Yet you feel it appropriate to lecture/criticise/contradict/advise many here who have been shooting all their lives and have a wealth of experience on all sorts of calibres! 

For someone who reads all their life you are very poor at comprehension.

Perhaps you should learn to read better, You are off at a tangent, promote your own view from reading as fact, don't listen to anyone with experience, criticise them and suggest they are wrong because you read something, haven't grasped what I have said or made any sensible response to it, haven't any serious personal knowledge of field work, haven't got a FAC and have invented something that I never said...….ie, where have I ever said .22lr doesn't ricochet?

Here's something else ricocheting, and I'm sure you will be more than capable of finding vast quantities of other heavy calibres ricocheting on the web, but you only seem to be interesting in promoting your view of .22lr.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gun+ricochet&qpvt=gun+ricochet&view=detail&mid=B81A02CC6D8A18AB9F12B81A02CC6D8A18AB9F12&&FORM=VRDGAR

Have a nice read!

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Deker

[Alsone 789]

Deker any calibre can ricochet but some are more to prone to others and that includes ones that don't have sufficient energy to fragment the bullet (.22LR) and all calibres firing FMJ or solid bullets. I don't need to take lectures from you. I've had over 40yrs shooting experience. I might not be a range officer or shoot at Bisley, but I know about shooting safety and I've 1st hand experience of .22LR. I've had plenty of experience with .22LR and there are plenty of experts who are more highly regarded within shooting than you, not to take anything away from your experience of course,  who hold a similar view about .22LR. If the OP wants to see from himself, by far the best way is with tracers as in the video above after dark or before sunrise. The best way forward instead of continued personal comments is simply to agree to disagree.

The one thing we can universally agree on, is the OP should bear in mind that a bullet can ricochet and when considering a shot, this should always be taken into account. 

[walshie 2,804]

OR....just an idea...the OP can go out and enjoy himself while taking sensible precautions, like the rest of us. 

[Meece 1,957]

To Dave Tyler. 

You have experience with the 17 hmr so you have suitable ground for the 22lr.  As you know safety is your responsibility so you know where you can shoot.  As I previously posted ( try an experiment...... From a standing position, Shoot at  a paper target close to the ground, i.e. to replicate the height of a rabbit's head, crouched or seated, with a chunk of concrete slab on the ground close behind it. So as to replicate  a stone from which the bullet can richochet and have a steel sheet like a corrugated roof sheet, set up vertically a couple of paces back from that and observe what the results are.  Ps don't forget the backstop.) this will give you a pretty good idea of how the round reacts.  Once you see on the backstop where the ricochet is hitting you can move it back to find out how much energy is left in the bullet. A 22lr is a far more dangerous proposition if fired up in the air. Such as shooting rooks out of trees ect. The General data available shows that about 35 degrees of elevation gives the longest range which can be about 1.6 km. The military in their weapons planning and design reckon around 90 ft/lb terminal energy is the floor for inflicting serious injury / possible death on an 'unprotected' adult human. Terminal energy of only 10 or 11 ft/lb,  but hit in the wrong place can still do major harm. (That's also borne out by the occasional fatal accidental shootings of children playing with 12 ft/lb ME air rifles.) The ones you hear whining off are badly deformed and take wildly changing trajectories, lose energy very fast, It is the one that scoots away off wet grass that is the one to worry about, no whine but you probably saw a speedboat like trail in the wet grass.  I most certainly am not scared to use it but do appreciate its inherent dangers I have heard it said, "oh it's only a little .22 cal"  but it deserves the same respect that all calibres do, ie safe backstop.  I shot a rabbit by a lake and the bullet went off into the distance with the typical whine. I was surprised to see it splash into the water about 40 yards away. I suspect there are huge variables involved such as angle of strike on the ground, what the surface is composed off. This could have been any bullet. You know what you are doing all you got to do is think. Good hunting.

 

 

[Davetyler 26]

Hi meece thanks for that. Ive got planty of amo, an fac air i need to zero and a huge pile of shhht i can shoot into. Im going tomorrow to see how i shoot the 22lr and how it is on my land (recently ploughed nice soft soil) if i set up just in front of the pile i have a safe backstop as it must be 20 ft high and about 70 yards long bang on in the middle of my field miles away from anyone. And can see for 800 yards all around me. I dont think i can get much safer than that with any cal rifle. Ive got a few things i can try as ive got some plasterboard, inch plywood, a fridge and some steel sheets i found on the farm. I will try different angles and different heights and different ranges and see what is worse for the bullet to ricochet (i might just be a lucky sod that doesnt get one when i try but i would like it if i could retrive all the bullets that i shoot and see how they have deformed 

[Meece 1,957]

As you previously stated and know ,... be careful of blowback off of the steel stuff.  I've been hit fairly hard from splashback out of leaded butts at the 25yrd range. You could shoot 270 or 308 into that pile of residue. Mind it would be a massive job to find the bullets. I  would be interested to have feedback from shots with and without the stone. Sometimes the bullets can be found when they go through something like plasterboard and then hit something like ply sheet as a second layer a few inches behind and even a tin sheet behind that

[Alsone 789]

23 hours ago, walshie said:

OR....just an idea...the OP can go out and enjoy himself while taking sensible precautions, like the rest of us. 

I don't think I ever suggested anything other than that. I just said I wasn't a fan. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Alsone

[Deker 3,450]

On ‎01‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 18:47, Alsone said:

Deker any calibre can ricochet but some are more to prone to others and that includes ones that don't have sufficient energy to fragment the bullet (.22LR) and all calibres firing FMJ or solid bullets. I don't need to take lectures from you. I've had over 40yrs shooting experience. I might not be a range officer or shoot at Bisley, but I know about shooting safety and I've 1st hand experience of .22LR. I've had plenty of experience with .22LR and there are plenty of experts who are more highly regarded within shooting than you, not to take anything away from your experience of course,  who hold a similar view about .22LR. If the OP wants to see from himself, by far the best way is with tracers as in the video above after dark or before sunrise. The best way forward instead of continued personal comments is simply to agree to disagree.

The one thing we can universally agree on, is the OP should bear in mind that a bullet can ricochet and when considering a shot, this should always be taken into account. 

 

[Davetyler 26]

Well guys ive been out with the 22lr and well after a quick zero into a box of old bedding i had a little play with the 22. 

I started off at 50 yards as that was my zero range, i was shooting off the bipod against a sshhiittt infront of the pile aiming 3 ft infront  at beetroot parsntps and spuds (floor was frosty)  safe backstop check, i let rip. I didnt get no zinging noises, no shhitt getting thrown up in the air or any movement around the target. I stood up and shot off sticks and still no zinging noises no movement around. So... 

Test 2 came along lay down on bipod had a piece of steel against the pile, covered the top of the pile overhanging the steel with inch plasterboard (about 7ft above the steel)  and a piece of roofing sheet raised 4" above the plasterboard. So i let rip on that. 1 shot then walked over and checked the plasterboard, there was a mark on the plasterboard but didnt go through so another couple of shots and no luck getting it through. It was hitting but not goung through.. so went closer..

40 yards turned the board around, whack hit the steel bounced up and stuck into the plasterboard. Done this a few times and they wasnt going through. Only 1 stuck in. All off bipod. Stood up and shot off sticks and did not make much different.

20 yards whent through the plasterboard but didnt make a mark on the steel roofing. That was lying down. Stood up and just buried it self in plasterboard

Sooo.... how bad are ricochets, well shooting eley subsonic hollowpoint i wouldnt think they go that far.

Needless to say i had a play around a pit. Nothing around for at least 1000 yards i shot into the banking and nothing just a hole where my crosshairs was. 

Went back to the steel had a couple more shots. The steel slid down a bit i hit it at the top and wack hit hit the steel and bounced back and hit me in the leg, shooting off sticks. I was quite amazed on how this came back to me as i spoke to my dad and he said he has never had it in shooting it for 5 years or so.

Anyways im still alive.... i can now say ive been shot. Lets put in one way i dont have a mark on me and it felt like someone flicked my pants. Found the bullet  on the floor just in front of my wellies.

Well it looked like half a mushroon. 

That was at 25 yards away. So guys my opinion of ricochet has changed a little 

[delswal 3,817]

Feck me i've had a .22 rimfire now for over 20 yrs, after reading this thread I won't dare shoot another round for the fear of a dreaded ricochet            

Alsone, you mentioned earlier in the thread about your friend shooting when you were forward of the gun, why did you go forward of the gun if you knew he was shooting ? not the safest or smartest of moves to knowingly put yourself in the field of fire 

[Meece 1,957]

1 hour ago, Davetyler said:

Well guys ive been out with the 22lr and well after a quick zero into a box of old bedding i had a little play with the 22. 

I started off at 50 yards as that was my zero range, i was shooting off the bipod against a sshhiittt infront of the pile aiming 3 ft infront  at beetroot parsntps and spuds (floor was frosty)  safe backstop check, i let rip. I didnt get no zinging noises, no shhitt getting thrown up in the air or any movement around the target. I stood up and shot off sticks and still no zinging noises no movement around. So... 

Test 2 came along lay down on bipod had a piece of steel against the pile, covered the top of the pile overhanging the steel with inch plasterboard (about 7ft above the steel)  and a piece of roofing sheet raised 4" above the plasterboard. So i let rip on that. 1 shot then walked over and checked the plasterboard, there was a mark on the plasterboard but didnt go through so another couple of shots and no luck getting it through. It was hitting but not goung through.. so went closer..

40 yards turned the board around, whack hit the steel bounced up and stuck into the plasterboard. Done this a few times and they wasnt going through. Only 1 stuck in. All off bipod. Stood up and shot off sticks and did not make much different.

20 yards whent through the plasterboard but didnt make a mark on the steel roofing. That was lying down. Stood up and just buried it self in plasterboard

Sooo.... how bad are ricochets, well shooting eley subsonic hollowpoint i wouldnt think they go that far.

Needless to say i had a play around a pit. Nothing around for at least 1000 yards i shot into the banking and nothing just a hole where my crosshairs was. 

Went back to the steel had a couple more shots. The steel slid down a bit i hit it at the top and wack hit hit the steel and bounced back and hit me in the leg, shooting off sticks. I was quite amazed on how this came back to me as i spoke to my dad and he said he has never had it in shooting it for 5 years or so.

Anyways im still alive.... i can now say ive been shot. Lets put in one way i dont have a mark on me and it felt like someone flicked my pants. Found the bullet  on the floor just in front of my wellies.

Well it looked like half a mushroon. 

That was at 25 yards away. So guys my opinion of ricochet has changed a little 

And from this experiment we find that ? Come on tell us so that Deker and Alsone can quit bickering

A. .... We can all sleep soundly in our beds knowing that the risk of richochet has been  significantly overstated by Alsone and those who live in a 5 mile radius can stand easy and don't have to issue the tin hat that grandma wore in the war. 

Or

B. ..... the risk of uncontrolled richochet is so great that ALL  of the local population must be evacuated  24  hrs before and AFTER..... a 22lr  is used and that form pr1..ck must be filled in three weeks before Intended use and that the clergy are urged to prey for forgiveness for the user.