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As some question has arisen about the prey itself being a backstop, just for the record, the ricochet that almost hit me was a .22 Winchester sub that passed through a rabbit shot at approx 40yds, hit a stone on a path and then flew past my head within a metre or two and onwards by I'd say another 40-50 yds by the sound of it. Obviously, the person taking the shot shouldn't have been doing so because they knew I was somewhere forwards of their position, although I was hidden by a low hedge and also out to the side. There's a good safety lesson there. However, despite being a sub, it still managed to travel an estimated total of around 80yds including passing through the prey.

So I can't totally agree with Deker here when he says the best way to avoid a ricochet is to hit your prey. It helps, but if the bullet passes through and hits a suitable surface eg a stone, it will still ricochet. That's where a solid bullet that expands such as .22LR is more likely to ricochet than a high velocity frangible bullet that fragments and dumps all of it's energy into the prey via hydrostatic shock, leaving only light weight fragments with low energy to pass through. (There's still a slight risk here of the bullet not breaking up and passing through although most will break up upon hitting the ground beyond).

I also agree that any calibre can ricochet, however, I disagree that .22LR isn't any more prone than other calibres. It's well known to be prone to ricochet because of the lack of fragmentation. If you need silence .22 subs can't be beaten (with a mod). For safety, I'd suggest a more frangible higher velocity hollow point / tipped round is safer (if adequately backstopped).

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Wilbur foxhound is right when he says that a ricochet doesn’t just go forward. I got hold of some 22lr tracers and was very surprised at the angles they ricocheted  . For anyone inexperienced with thi

What comic did you read that in???    That would be more than difficult as many .22lr START sub sonic and even HV will be sub sonic in fractions of a second after exiting the barrel, and most cer

Hi to whoever is reading. Collected a 22lr yesterday as my land is passed for it. Anyhow ive had a hmr for a few weeks and after a lot of playing woth it i shot a rabbit at 140 yards and what a mess.

honestly for sub 100 yards if i needed quiet i would use fac air.mine is about 35 ft lbs but i here great things about 50 ft lbs .25 fx impact.less than half the energy to stop but on a still night not much in it accuracy wise from my experience with .22lr

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On 27/01/2019 at 18:49, walshie said:

You don't need to hit a stone for a 22lr to ricochet. They will happily bounce of grass too. Shooting down like you are minimises the chance, but won't stop it 100%.

Just make sure you have a safe backstop with whatever calibre you are using.

Had them bounce when the soil was dry during a dry spell  just got to watch every time your going to pull the trigger 

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On 28/01/2019 at 11:37, Deker said:

Nobody can give you a definitive answer, the answer will depend on position, weather, temperature, shot height, time of day, specific ammo, distance, etc etc etc, and change virtually daily. 

Don't forget, your best way of avoiding ricochets or collateral damage is to actually hit what you are aiming at, so spend time getting used to the gun/ammo and check zero.

Many have suggested not taking the shot unless YOU are confident, and that is about the size of it.

As for .22LR being likely to ricochet, anything can/does/will given the right/wrong circumstances.     .22LR is the most popular civil calibre in the world by miles, how often do you see headlines of ricochets injuring/damaging things?!

I agre with the above. Wholeheartedly.  It's  sense.

On 28/01/2019 at 14:34, Rimfireboy! said:

Many years ago, a friend of mine was zeroing at fifty yards with Winchester subs. The bullets passed through the target and skimmed along the short wet grass behind before bouncing up to around a couple of feet above the ground, where they slammed sideways into an 8’x 4’x 3/4” plywood sheet a further fifty yards away. The bullets embedded into the ply by around half their sideways depth and could be picked out with a pen knife. It seemed that after skimming along the grass and toppling through the air for fifty yards after passing through a paper target, they’d already lost most of their energy. If they’d have traveled another hundred yards, I’d have been surprised. Obviously there’s no room for complacency though.

People get scared when they hear the zing of a richochet but when a bullet is tumbling it is loosing speed and energy very quickly and that bullet is a lot safer than one that is flying true and in a straight line off into the distance under full power.

17 hours ago, zx10mike said:

i gave up hunting with a 22lr a long time ago for this very reason.my ground is just not suited to that cal.i have a 17 hornet now and only head shoot rabbits

( so how do you account for the shots that you miss the head of the rabbit and the bullet disappears off into the distance ? The bullet will impact on the ground at some time and to say that the bullet disintegrates is differing to when a mate shot at a target propped on the front of a trailer and the bullet put a clean hole through the trailer headboard bar from about 100 paces.)

15 hours ago, Alsone said:

 just for the record, the ricochet that almost hit me was a .22 Winchester sub that passed through a rabbit shot at approx 40yds, hit a stone on a path and then flew past my head within a metre or two and onwards by I'd say another 40-50 yds by the sound of it. Obviously, the person taking the shot shouldn't have been doing so because they knew I was somewhere forwards of their position,

 ( were words of advice given to the person that nearly shot you ?) Perhaps it would have been ok if it had been a 223 or other

 ( So what does it matter that it was 22lr  ? If it was a 22.250 or a 243 or anything that bullet will ricochet.  22 lr do not richochet  more than others . It just sems that way because the bullet is slower and the muzzle blast covers the zing.)


So I can't totally agree with Deker here when he says the best way to avoid a ricochet is to hit your prey. It helps, but if the bullet passes through and hits a suitable surface eg a stone, it will still ricocheit. 

 (As you state.)

. That's where a solid bullet that expands such as .22LR is more likely to ricochet than a high velocity frangible bullet that fragments and dumps all of it's energy into the prey via hydrostatic shock, leaving only light weight fragments with low energy to pass through. There's still a slight risk here of the bullet not breaking up and passing through although most will break up upon hitting the ground beyond. 

 (Not necessarily so. If the bullet is a varmint disintegrating type it probably might but if it is a soft point it has more mass than the 40grn of a 22lr and will travel for a considerable distance.)

I also agree that any calibre can ricochet, ( **. )

 I disagree that .22LR isn't any more prone than other calibres. It's well known to be prone to ricochet because of the lack of fragmentation

 ( well known by who ? this is the sort of uninformed nonsense that I expect to hear from feo's !  upon what proven evidence do you or anyone else base this statement ? )

  For safety, I'd suggest a more frangible higher velocity hollow point / tipped round is safer (if adequately backstopped).

( so is any calibre )

( try an experiment...... From a standing position, Shoot at  a paper target close to the ground, i.e. to replicate the height of a rabbit's head, crouched or seated, with a chunk of concrete slab on the ground close behind it. So as to replicate  a stone from which the bullet can richochet and have a steel sheet like a corrugated roof sheet, set up vertically a couple of paces back from that and observe what the results are.  Ps don't forget the backstop.)

 

Edited by Meece
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17 hours ago, Meece said:

I agre with the above. Wholeheartedly.  It's  sense.

People get scared when they hear the zing of a richochet but when a bullet is tumbling it is loosing speed and energy very quickly and that bullet is a lot safer than one that is flying true and in a straight line off into the distance under full power.

( so how do you account for the shots that you miss the head of the rabbit and the bullet disappears off into the distance ? The bullet will impact on the ground at some time and to say that the bullet disintegrates is differing to when a mate shot at a target propped on the front of a trailer and the bullet put a clean hole through the trailer headboard bar from about 100 paces.)

 

That's true but even a tumbling bullet will make a proper mess of you. A tumbling .22LR @ 40 grains is 3-4 times the weight of an average air rifle pellet, sharp, and with many many times the energy even in a tumbling state. In my case, even after being slowed by penetrating and passing through a rabbit and then hitting a stone to cause the ricochet, I couldn't even see the bullet only hear it approach and pass because of the air displaced by the misshapen head, so believe me when I say it still had enough velocity to embed itself into some wood (or a person). 

Yes some very firm words were said about his decision to shoot knowing someone was somewhere ahead of the gun.

You're mistaken about .22LR not ricocheting more than other bullets, it's known for it and the cause is the relatively solid bullet form combined with the low velocity which is insufficient to break the bullet apart. Here's an article in Shooting UK written by George Wallace, who used to be the BASC's top firearms expert: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/which-rifle-rounds-are-more-likely-to-ricochet-19276

Only just found that this morning, but it pretty much confirms everything I said above about .22LR.
 

Quote

However, experience does show certain trends and the well-known tendency of the .22 rimfire to ricochet is, I think, caused by the combination of light weight and modest velocity.
 


 

Edited by Alsone
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5 hours ago, Alsone said:

That's true but even a tumbling bullet will make a proper mess of you. A tumbling .22LR @ 40 grains is 3-4 times the weight of an average air rifle pellet, sharp, and with many many times the energy even in a tumbling state. In my case, even after being slowed by penetrating and passing through a rabbit and then hitting a stone to cause the ricochet, I couldn't even see the bullet only hear it approach and pass because of the air displaced by the misshapen head, so believe me when I say it still had enough velocity to embed itself into some wood (or a person). 

Yes some very firm words were said about his decision to shoot knowing someone was somewhere ahead of the gun.

You're mistaken about .22LR not ricocheting more than other bullets, it's known for it and the cause is the relatively solid bullet form combined with the low velocity which is insufficient to break the bullet apart. Here's an article in Shooting UK written by George Wallace, who used to be the BASC's top firearms expert: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/which-rifle-rounds-are-more-likely-to-ricochet-19276

Only just found that this morning, but it pretty much confirms everything I said above about .22LR.
 


 

Some advice, stop shooting with muppets and …...

Stop reading and regurgitating whatever suits you, go and get a FAC and some real shooting experience!

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50 minutes ago, Deker said:

Some advice, stop shooting with muppets and …...

Stop reading and regurgitating whatever suits you, go and get a FAC and some real shooting experience!

Deker, I've shot plenty of .22LR and it's my own experience that says it's more prone to ricochet than other calibres. Like everything, it has it's place though.  

As for my friend being a muppet, he's far from it. However, he did make a serious error of judgement in shooting without knowing where on the land I was. I was out of the line of sight behind a low hedge row in an adjacent field to the one where he took the shot, probably 30 yards or more out to the side. What it shows, is just how dangerous ricochets can be because they don't necessarily occur at anticipated angles which means they can easily leave what might be regarded as a safe corridor for a shot. The fact is he shouldn't have taken a shot when someone was potentially forward of his position, even if no-one was in sight or the line of aim. However, everyone's made mistakes at one time or another. The main thing is no-one got hurt and they key is to learn from them so you never make them again. 

BTW, George Wallace is one of the countries leading experts on firearms and firearms law and has been a firearms consultant to both the BASC Firearms Dept and the National Game Keepers Association. I've been lucky  enough to consult him personally several times. So I reckon my opinion on .22LR and ricochets, is on pretty sound ground if it accords with his own findings. 

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6 hours ago, Alsone said:

That's true but even a tumbling bullet will make a proper mess of you. A tumbling .22LR @ 40 grains is 3-4 times the weight of an average air rifle pellet, sharp, and with many many times the energy even in a tumbling state. In my case, even after being slowed by penetrating and passing through a rabbit and then hitting a stone to cause the ricochet, I couldn't even see the bullet only hear it approach and pass because of the air displaced by the misshapen head, so believe me when I say it still had enough velocity to embed itself into some wood (or a person). 

Yes some very firm words were said about his decision to shoot knowing someone was somewhere ahead of the gun.

You're mistaken about .22LR not ricocheting more than other bullets, it's known for it and the cause is the relatively solid bullet form combined with the low velocity which is insufficient to break the bullet apart. Here's an article in Shooting UK written by George Wallace, who used to be the BASC's top firearms expert: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/which-rifle-rounds-are-more-likely-to-ricochet-19276

Only just found that this morning, but it pretty much confirms everything I said above about .22LR.
 


 

I do understand where you are coming from but to randomly quote unsubstantiated theories is just Kranky. Just because george wallace USED TO have dealings with basc don't mean didly  squat. By quoting other peoples  random ideas, perpetuates ideas that don't necessarily ring true. This is why the 22lr is not issued by a lot of forces for shooting Fox with.. This is because some bright spark at basc spouted about how it wasn't powerful enough to shoot Fox with. Consequently the Muppet feo's who didn't know one end of a bit of wood to the other took this gem on board and went round telling everyone as if they had invented the wheel. Tell many tens of thousands of dead foxes that 22lr would kiĺl them because it wasnt powerfull enough. Years ago if you had a 22lr it was considered to be a very powerful lethal  weapon.  Even on the box it states lethal within 1.6 km. 

That article substantiates nothing. If you really read that article he states .... In fact there are so many variables of trajectory, bullet weight, velocity, nature of target, angle of impact etc etc that reliable predictions are almost impossible.

So how can a true assessment be made. There are all the usual sorts of quotes like ... I think!  ... it is be lived that.!   Charlie bloggs says that xyz.

ok I have heard the odd ricochet and that is over many thousands of 22lr rounds in all conditions over a gòod 40 years,  but so what. A ricochet is slowing and tumbling loosing energy a Damn sight quicker than a free flying bullet disappearing off over the horizon.  There are loads of ballistic charts out there that show the flight trajectory of a 22lr bullet.

Now here I go throwing an unsubstantiated piece of information but " I. ... think ..... that if you shoot a 22lr horizontal from the shoulder that the bullet WILL hit the ground something like 150 yards away".

Don't forget,  SAFETY IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.  don't rely on General blurb. Or George Wallace .. or basic. 

Don't rely on stuff like that, it only give stupid people stupid ideas !  Go and do proper testing. 

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58 minutes ago, Alsone said:

Deker, I've shot plenty of .22LR and it's my own experience that says it's more prone to ricochet than other calibres. Like everything, it has it's place though.  

As for my friend being a muppet, he's far from it. However, he did make a serious error of judgement in shooting without knowing where on the land I was. I was out of the line of sight behind a low hedge row in an adjacent field to the one where he took the shot, probably 30 yards or more out to the side. What it shows, is just how dangerous ricochets can be because they don't necessarily occur at anticipated angles which means they can easily leave what might be regarded as a safe corridor for a shot. The fact is he shouldn't have taken a shot when someone was potentially forward of his position, even if no-one was in sight or the line of aim. However, everyone's made mistakes at one time or another. The main thing is no-one got hurt and they key is to learn from them so you never make them again. 

BTW, George Wallace is one of the countries leading experts on firearms and firearms law and has been a firearms consultant to both the BASC Firearms Dept and the National Game Keepers Association. I've been lucky  enough to consult him personally several times. So I reckon my opinion on .22LR and ricochets, is on pretty sound ground if it accords with his own findings. 

:laugh: So your mate isn't a muppet .................  However, he did make a serious error of judgement in shooting without knowing where on the land I was. :hmm: 

I'll sleep easier knowing you agree with George Wallace. :laugh:

 

 

 

Edited by Deker
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Never heard of George Wallace. Whoever he works for, how can he "know" so much more than shooters who have shot thousands of rounds of 22lr ? He is entitled to an opinion, of course, but if you read what he said....

However, experience does show certain trends and the well-known tendency of the .22 rimfire to ricochet is, I think, caused by the combination of light weight and modest velocity.

He talks about the "well known tendency of .22 rimfire (I assume he means 22lr) to ricochet." Which it can do. He doesn't state it ricochets more than any other calibre. I'd say my "whizzer" to shot ratio is pretty low when I shoot mine.

The OP was asking for a bit of first-hand advice, not copied and pasted stuff he could read anywhere. 

 

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Thanks for that walshie, i was wondering how many times ive read the statements in the past 12 month lol

As for the information people have given me i thank you all for your opinion.

I am out on sunday with the rifle to have a play with it as nobody around for atleast a mile around me. Dont take it the wrong way i wont be shooting upwards but i have a fridge im gonna shoot into and see what the outcome is. 

Like meece says il try and work it out. Ive got plywood and plasterboard to try a few ricochet theory out and il let people know how i get on

 

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Btw as for your mate alsone, dont mean no disrespect or dont take it the wrong way and i know that i aint no chris kyle but im glad i shoot on my own most of the time and he obviously didnt think before he pulled that trigger. 

This is why i am asking the question to get knowlage from different people with different experience with the 22lr.

I went out with the 17 yesterday and managed 3 headshot bunnies at 140 yards plus 

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Thanks for your opinion Walshie, but I have plenty of experience with .22LR. I'm also not the only one in this thread who's experienced ricochets more with .22LR than other calibres.

DaveT, I couldn't agree more. You're far safer on your own (unless you shoot yourself of course in which case there's no-one to give 1st aid!). There were a whole lot of circumstances leading up to how this came about and I'm not about to clog the forum up with a long tale. Suffice to say, he thought I was several fields away. The simple safety mistake though is you never take a shot when you know someone may be forwards of your position. If someone else is known to be on the land you're shooting over, you only take a shot if you know their position and it's safe to do so. Presumption is the mother of all accidents. I'm glad you've taken the time to seek opinion and are employing caution. So many people get a ticket and then treat it like a driving licence. With guns especially, safety is best taught not left to chance. Luckily I was taught by a military range officer and safety training doesn't come much better. I just hope I learnt what I was taught.

Edited by Alsone
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On 28/01/2019 at 23:06, zx10mike said:

i gave up hunting with a 22lr a long time ago for this very reason.my ground is just not suited to that cal.i have a 17 hornet now and only head shoot rabbits and the more i use it the more i like it.safest round i have had and quieter than a hmr's i have had.if your asking the question i think you know the answer.

Probably safer than a zx10 anyway Mike??

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8 hours ago, Alsone said:

Thanks for your opinion Walshie, but I have plenty of experience with .22LR. I'm also not the only one in this thread who's experienced ricochets more with .22LR than other calibres.

DaveT, I couldn't agree more. You're far safer on your own (unless you shoot yourself of course in which case there's no-one to give 1st aid!). There were a whole lot of circumstances leading up to how this came about and I'm not about to clog the forum up with a long tale. Suffice to say, he thought I was several fields away. The simple safety mistake though is you never take a shot when you know someone may be forwards of your position. If someone else is known to be on the land you're shooting over, you only take a shot if you know their position and it's safe to do so. Presumption is the mother of all accidents. I'm glad you've taken the time to seek opinion and are employing caution. So many people get a ticket and then treat it like a driving licence. With guns especially, safety is best taught not left to chance. Luckily I was taught by a military range officer and safety training doesn't come much better. I just hope I learnt what I was taught.

A Military range Officer is probably reasonably qualified to train people to shoot on Military ranges.   

There is a world of difference between a Military Range and the field.    They all tend to have purpose built backstops and ricochets are virtually non existent, even when they are using the sleeved down .22LR training versions of military rifles!

I am a Qualified RCO at Military ranges and there is very little that tranfers to the field, that is another whole area of learning/experience!

There are many people here that shoot 1000's of .22lr every year in all sorts of environments, I can't help but think your  "I have plenty of experience with .22LR"  doesn't begin to stack up to them as you don't even have a FAC and have to rely on other people for your experience, and they seem to be muppets!

Have a nice day reading!

 

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