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Mr Fd you making the back of my head hurt again lol.My ole man didn't believe this but he never held a line together.I was around some who did believe it.I hope yall gentleman continue this discussion.In 20 years I will curse the wrong one.When I was a rugrat we went to Plott days.(Plott=houndbreedfor bear)I was setting beside a hillbilly in overalls I knew ,when a lady approached him and said sir can I measure the dog.He said yesmam.She checked teeth,pulled out tape measure and went all over this hound and said sir your dog is perfect.He said I thought so but I couldn't ever convince the bears to read tape measure.

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The Toby dog I started out with was from a brother sister mating, Choker and Mo, he was undershot,  it was in there from the beginning.  He opened my eyes to what sort of a standard can be achieved, 

I had quite a few of them RS, again, some where curs, some ran well and beat the stags hands down, one in particular came to meet the stags. I was well looked after out there and I met some real

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1 minute ago, Apache... said:

I was just interested if it was the colour I've had a couple of choc pats with no issues at all, but have experience with another breed and the chocs seem to have skin conditions and bad coats.

The NS stuff IMO had poor coats and thin skin mate but as usual just my opinion .

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Very informative post I must of been typing then.Would anybody else care to post what they look for other than working ability.I have been asking myself this question for 24 hours.

Skin problems, shyness,size is all I thought of but would like some more first hand info.

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32 minutes ago, foxdropper said:

Good post mate and I’m going to answer each question to best of my ability ..

1)can i ask what was behind the reason you adding Stevens blood to your wheeler blooded family of dogs FD?

My own stuff was very full on ,something I liked in my younger years but grew out of the older I got .I knew Stevens when he was at the Beaufort by me and also knew a lad he was very pally with that bred a litter Stevens wasn’t happy with from two dogs NS had gifted him ,political bollocks .They weren’t meant for hunt days if you know what I mean .He wanted the litter destroyed but I took on the whole lot .I was digging mad at the time and gave the whole litter a good chance ,a dog and 3 bitches .

The dog never made the grade but I was impressed by two bitches enough to put my then Fly dog over them producing bigger bitches with attitude and brains ,brains something I thought was lacking in my own .

My  own stuff was never 100%Wheeler mate but I rated the first ever dog I picked up from Derek enough to use him solely on Nuttal x Wheeler bitches for several years ,the amount of Wheeler increasing each mating .

I can honestly say I wasn’t much interested in anybody else’s type in the dig mad years of my 20s and 30s and probably dug to a handful of other people’s .

 Back then ,from what I saw Stevens took his line or rather concentrated the breeding on hunt work alone with stopping days left very much to other people myself included .It appeared all that was required was a dog to bolt a fox or do an hour  at best .Thats what I remember .

The breeding though soon got out of his hands and for the best IMO as lads wanted a bit more than hunt terriers and bred for that and that around where I took on the litter .

2)did the stevens blood improve your stock when mixed? Or vice versa?what were/are the noticable differences in the dogs you produced?

Being biased I would say I improved the stuff by increasing firstly size and jaw ,the type back then were a bit snipey .

In reverse ,the blood had a steadying influence on my line ,adding caution to brawn the perfect combination to my mind .

IMO coat was improved ,I never liked rough coated dogs ,tight tough hides improved that .

My own line began to show signs of a manifested inherited blindness that only showed in dogs over 5 years for some unknown reason and too late to stop the blood being saturated by it as most bitches were bred by 5 year old if needed back then .

The infusion of NS introduced a malady called reverse sneezing which causes the dog to sneeze internally when excited and exercising ,something that can be controlled by keeping up the fitness but not cured . Wet sores also appeared in a few litters but I’ve bred away from it now ,sores that appeared for no reason and went the same way .

Hopes this helps D.C. .

This isn’t a big deal but the parents to your ns pups weren’t both gifted off ns the dam he had off me, she was out of a litter of seven bitches.

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33 minutes ago, foxdropper said:

Good post mate and I’m going to answer each question to best of my ability ..

1)can i ask what was behind the reason you adding Stevens blood to your wheeler blooded family of dogs FD?

My own stuff was very full on ,something I liked in my younger years but grew out of the older I got .I knew Stevens when he was at the Beaufort by me and also knew a lad he was very pally with that bred a litter Stevens wasn’t happy with from two dogs NS had gifted him ,political bollocks .They weren’t meant for hunt days if you know what I mean .He wanted the litter destroyed but I took on the whole lot .I was digging mad at the time and gave the whole litter a good chance ,a dog and 3 bitches .

The dog never made the grade but I was impressed by two bitches enough to put my then Fly dog over them producing bigger bitches with attitude and brains ,brains something I thought was lacking in my own .

My  own stuff was never 100%Wheeler mate but I rated the first ever dog I picked up from Derek enough to use him solely on Nuttal x Wheeler bitches for several years ,the amount of Wheeler increasing each mating .

I can honestly say I wasn’t much interested in anybody else’s type in the dig mad years of my 20s and 30s and probably dug to a handful of other people’s .

 Back then ,from what I saw Stevens took his line or rather concentrated the breeding on hunt work alone with stopping days left very much to other people myself included .It appeared all that was required was a dog to bolt a fox or do an hour  at best .Thats what I remember .

The breeding though soon got out of his hands and for the best IMO as lads wanted a bit more than hunt terriers and bred for that and that around where I took on the litter .

2)did the stevens blood improve your stock when mixed? Or vice versa?what were/are the noticable differences in the dogs you produced?

Being biased I would say I improved the stuff by increasing firstly size and jaw ,the type back then were a bit snipey .

In reverse ,the blood had a steadying influence on my line ,adding caution to brawn the perfect combination to my mind .

IMO coat was improved ,I never liked rough coated dogs ,tight tough hides improved that .

My own line began to show signs of a manifested inherited blindness that only showed in dogs over 5 years for some unknown reason and too late to stop the blood being saturated by it as most bitches were bred by 5 year old if needed back then .

The infusion of NS introduced a malady called reverse sneezing which causes the dog to sneeze internally when excited and exercising ,something that can be controlled by keeping up the fitness but not cured . Wet sores also appeared in a few litters but I’ve bred away from it now ,sores that appeared for no reason and went the same way .

Hopes this helps D.C. .

thank you for your reply FD,thats interesting about the reverse sneezing,encounted it myself....old bitch i got here,and the daughter's I had all did it,and a few more over the yrs looking back ?

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13 minutes ago, mango said:

This isn’t a big deal but the parents to your ns pups weren’t both gifted off ns the dam he had off me, she was out of a litter of seven bitches.

Did you breed the Dam mate and what was her breeding . Pm if you prefer .Just goes to show this one comment has changed history lol.Im guessing she was still  NS breeding though .Was a tidy useful bitch from memory .Grisle .

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17 minutes ago, Daniel cain said:

thank you for your reply FD,thats interesting about the reverse sneezing,encounted it myself....old bitch i got here,and the daughter's I had all did it,and a few more over the yrs looking back ?

Now 5 generations from introducing it mate and still with me .Like little pugs getting about .lol.

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The "  undershot gene " has two be carried by both sire  and dam ,if you line an undershot dog to something you can trace the line of and your sure the line doesn't carry the gene ,then none of the pups will be undershot ,although they may be carriers of the gene .

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14 hours ago, foxdropper said:

But I never bred to it mate .You will agree there’s a difference in those that maybe carriers and those that actually have it .My own blood mixed with NS never had that defect and has never shown when put over NS .In fact it improved the whole animal lol.I was careful to look back in the lineage of what I had from his stuff  purposely to see if jaw was a problem and although the ped was sketchy ,there were no bad jaws as far as I could establish .

Reverse sneezing and skin disorders yes but no bad jaws .

That reverse sneezing could well be due to a extended pallet,it's like a enlarged tonsil  and i myself lost a russell to ground once who couldn't catch her breath back when she had a bout of it under the sod and at a fox...

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It's threads like this that make this site worth coming back too. Well done to the lads adding their experiences, knowledge and methods with the ups and downs. Keep it up and lets hope this doesnt go down the usual bitching route 

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Going back to the thin skin comment Fd, (something that pisses me off) I'm sure something has been added to the breeding and crops up in black terriers now and again (thankfully not in mine) maybe border/lakey etc because the majority of blacks have thick skin.

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