Deal breaker?

[Rickshaw swami 3,894]

Redneck English sorry what I meant was unless your peddling them you shouldn't care 

[foxdropper 17,092]

On 06/01/2019 at 20:28, milliken said:

personally if it was me and the bitch was outstanding and not a middle of the road bitch then I would breed of her as with the right selective breed the under shot can be fixed

Have you or anyone you know successfully bred out a bad mouth mate or is this guesswork .

One of the reasons I would never use a dog if undershot or in its history no matter its work qualities .

[dillydog 8,414]

9 hours ago, foxdropper said:

Have you or anyone you know successfully bred out a bad mouth mate or is this guesswork .

One of the reasons I would never use a dog if undershot or in its history no matter its work qualities .

Yes and yes, you've got Stevens blood in your terriers  FD , they all carry undershot blood

[foxdropper 17,092]

But I never bred to it mate .You will agree there’s a difference in those that maybe carriers and those that actually have it .My own blood mixed with NS never had that defect and has never shown when put over NS .In fact it improved the whole animal lol.I was careful to look back in the lineage of what I had from his stuff  purposely to see if jaw was a problem and although the ped was sketchy ,there were no bad jaws as far as I could establish .

Reverse sneezing and skin disorders yes but no bad jaws .

[dillydog 8,414]

The Toby dog I started out with was from a brother sister mating, Choker and Mo, he was undershot,  it was in there from the beginning.  He opened my eyes to what sort of a standard can be achieved,  I didn't care then about his mouth and I don't care now. 

I don't like to see it, but it's not the end of the world, given a choice of pups I'll always take the one that's not undershot all things being equal. 

I've had pups with the correct scissor bite go wrong as they drop their first teeth and visa versa.  I've had them born correct,  go wrong and then strangely come right within a few months  ! 

Like others have said before,  if you've got an outstanding animal that out shines anything else you've got or have seen,  the last thing you'd be talking about is their mouth.

[Apache... 2,585]

Some of the skin problems you had with the terriers Fd where they mostly with chocolates?

[Glyn..... 5,199]

=

Edited January 8, 2019 by Glyn.....

[stumfelter 3,032]

1 minute ago, W. Katchum said:

The only ones Iv ever seen were hardly noticeable anyways, anybody any pics of real bad mouths, I wanna see if they are what Iv saw

Just Google Ken Dodd......

[eastcoast 3,726]

On ‎06‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 19:29, Jrt90 said:

Was thinking the same. It's just i have this bitch russell x lakeland that was got as a family pet and she's bolted a few out on walks, but not sure if she's up to the grade as i wouldn't know what to be looking for in a proper working dog.

Are you not overthinking things? A pet bred terrier and you have access to land/quarry and to date she's doing the job? Happy days man, just enjoy it. Carry on working her and make your own assessment whether an undershot jaw is a problem or not. If further down the line you did decide to breed from her then her mouth may be the least of your problems. What stud to use to replicate her type? Worker to worker people would say I suppose and pay no heed to the physical type. History/legend tells us that Jack Russell bought his foundation bitch from the local milkman. Who knows? Just enjoy hunting with her at the moment would be my advice.

[foxdropper 17,092]

1 hour ago, Apache... said:

Some of the skin problems you had with the terriers Fd where they mostly with chocolates?

No mate I’ve never bred nor owned a chocolate until very recently was gifted a bitch .

[Jrt90 24]

21 minutes ago, eastcoast said:

Are you not overthinking things? A pet bred terrier and you have access to land/quarry and to date she's doing the job? Happy days man, just enjoy it. Carry on working her and make your own assessment whether an undershot jaw is a problem or not. If further down the line you did decide to breed from her then her mouth may be the least of your problems. What stud to use to replicate her type? Worker to worker people would say I suppose and pay no heed to the physical type. History/legend tells us that Jack Russell bought his foundation bitch from the local milkman. Who knows? Just enjoy hunting with her at the moment would be my advice.

Cheers eastcoast

[Daniel cain 42,798]

11 hours ago, foxdropper said:

But I never bred to it mate .You will agree there’s a difference in those that maybe carriers and those that actually have it .My own blood mixed with NS never had that defect and has never shown when put over NS .In fact it improved the whole animal lol.I was careful to look back in the lineage of what I had from his stuff  purposely to see if jaw was a problem and although the ped was sketchy ,there were no bad jaws as far as I could establish .

Reverse sneezing and skin disorders yes but no bad jaws .

Im not looking for an argument or 'my dogs blacker than yours scenario'  can i ask what was behind the reason you adding Stevens blood to your wheeler blooded family of dogs FD? genuinally interested as the 2 types are worlds apart work wise, and in confirmation IMO?I've never personally seen a wheeler bred dog i would   take home and feed, seen plenty of the Stevens type work that  I would mind.totally different animals/styles...ive dug to both types  over the yrs...the chocolate drops just seem superior digging dogs, just seem to make stuff happen if that makes sense?And did the stevens blood improve your stock when mixed? Or vice versa?what were/are the noticable differences in the dogs you produced?

[foxdropper 17,092]

1 hour ago, Glyn..... said:

scissor bites almond shaped eyes, ears  hanging close to the cheeks all KC  bullshit that has crept into working terriers via the show pony brigade , if a terrier can work eat and bred, it will do for me , what we call a patterdale from the very beginning have had undershot gobs because of the pit blood , it only became a problem when certain breeders went to shows more than to earths , one well known breeder f****d up a peerless line by mating in KC lakeland to his patterdales because he wanted scissor bites , i've breed undershot together got workers and some of them had the so called correct bite some didn't mated so called correct bite together got workers some undershot , just bred a litter one bitch undershot, big thick legs,  head like a mini pit bull , not scared of anything  but oh no her teeth are no good for showing  

For my own part there has never been a reason why confirmation has never been up there with work.Some lads lads seem to make do with faults just because it works ,something I’ve never been content with .i might have been very lucky to start with or I might have an eye for what I wanted .At one time there was a dog floating around in Wales that was the worse jaw I’d ever seen but he was a worker and rated by those who saw it and used as stud by a few ,a few that regretted it straight away by all accounts .Again there is no reason why conformation isn’t up there with work .Having the hindsight to take my breeding another way stopped me from coming to a dead end with inherited blindness ,cataracts ,with my own inbred stuff ,I’m sure of it but jaws have never been an issue despite using heavily bull influenced pats from time to time .

Showing has never been part of my life but doesn’t mean I’ll settle for anything less .

Just for the record I have been on digs where the dogs jaw was mentioned lol,by me .

[ziggy 604]

FD with putting ns stuff into your wheeler bred dogs would it have steadied the dogs up to .. 

[foxdropper 17,092]

51 minutes ago, Daniel cain said:

Im not looking for an argument or 'my dogs blacker than yours scenario'  can i ask what was behind the reason you adding Stevens blood to your wheeler blooded family of dogs FD? genuinally interested as the 2 types are worlds apart work wise, and in confirmation IMO?I've never personally seen a wheeler bred dog i would   take home and feed, seen plenty of the Stevens type work that  I would mind.totally different animals/styles...ive dug to both types  over the yrs...the chocolate drops just seem superior digging dogs, just seem to make stuff happen if that makes sense?And did the stevens blood improve your stock when mixed? Or vice versa?what were/are the noticable differences in the dogs you produced?

Good post mate and I’m going to answer each question to best of my ability ..

1)can i ask what was behind the reason you adding Stevens blood to your wheeler blooded family of dogs FD?

My own stuff was very full on ,something I liked in my younger years but grew out of the older I got .I knew Stevens when he was at the Beaufort by me and also knew a lad he was very pally with that bred a litter Stevens wasn’t happy with from two dogs NS had gifted him ,political bollocks .They weren’t meant for hunt days if you know what I mean .He wanted the litter destroyed but I took on the whole lot .I was digging mad at the time and gave the whole litter a good chance ,a dog and 3 bitches .

The dog never made the grade but I was impressed by two bitches enough to put my then Fly dog over them producing bigger bitches with attitude and brains ,brains something I thought was lacking in my own .

My  own stuff was never 100%Wheeler mate but I rated the first ever dog I picked up from Derek enough to use him solely on Nuttal x Wheeler bitches for several years ,the amount of Wheeler increasing each mating .

I can honestly say I wasn’t much interested in anybody else’s type in the dig mad years of my 20s and 30s and probably dug to a handful of other people’s .

 Back then ,from what I saw Stevens took his line or rather concentrated the breeding on hunt work alone with stopping days left very much to other people myself included .It appeared all that was required was a dog to bolt a fox or do an hour  at best .Thats what I remember .

The breeding though soon got out of his hands and for the best IMO as lads wanted a bit more than hunt terriers and bred for that and that around where I took on the litter .

2)did the stevens blood improve your stock when mixed? Or vice versa?what were/are the noticable differences in the dogs you produced?

Being biased I would say I improved the stuff by increasing firstly size and jaw ,the type back then were a bit snipey .

In reverse ,the blood had a steadying influence on my line ,adding caution to brawn the perfect combination to my mind .

IMO coat was improved ,I never liked rough coated dogs ,tight tough hides improved that .

My own line began to show signs of a manifested inherited blindness that only showed in dogs over 5 years for some unknown reason and too late to stop the blood being saturated by it as most bitches were bred by 5 year old if needed back then .

The infusion of NS introduced a malady called reverse sneezing which causes the dog to sneeze internally when excited and exercising ,something that can be controlled by keeping up the fitness but not cured . Wet sores also appeared in a few litters but I’ve bred away from it now ,sores that appeared for no reason and went the same way .

Hopes this helps D.C. .