No getting out of paying for GP fees anymore

[Born Hunter 17,622]

9 hours ago, Meece said:

The above link does shed a bit of light on the situation but ..   What a load of Wooly headed, subserviant nonsense. Total groveling.  The chief constable is really going to be worried by that. And what are they doing in the other counties that are pulling this stunt. They shouldn't even bother with the chief constables because thats like the sheep requesting a meeting with the wolf to raise concerns about the fact that the wolf is going to chew the sheeps bits. Pathetic. They shouldn't be requesting anything, they should be having a real crack at the minister and demanding that the chief constables follow the rules and not make it up as they go along. How much this is useless is demonstrated by the fact that the chief constable of Merseyside won't correspond with them anymore.  Rant.

Mate, that's because the shooting community have no power, lol. All we can do is ask nicely. It's a sad state of affairs but what are 'we' supposed to do when we have little clout? The only reason I'm a member of BASC is because I want to put my money somewhere and they're the biggest player in the game. Someone else comes along who has more clout then I'll move gladly. My only concern is politics but I think we have to be realistic.

7 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

If there isn't a law how can it be enforced?! I'm hoping that if anyone has a ticket refused they'll immediately seek legal advice??

Pay the 40 quid and grumble or lose ya license and gamble thousands..... I'm happy to be the test case, but I ain't paying for it and I need a bit more guarantee when I'm gambling what liberty I have for the sake of everyone else.

[Meece 1,957]

14 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

No, up until this if your licensing authority did not receive the info requested from your GP then they assumed no reason to not issue/renew. Now however some forces have made it policy that if they do not receive the requested info from your GP they will not issue/renew your certificate.

Before, if your GP charged you, you could simply refuse to pay and everything would move forward. Now you would have to pay or lose your guns.

I think realistically if 'we' fight this it will simply escalate from a bureaucratic matter to a political one. Simply because having GP info is reasonable given the UKs general attitude towards gun ownership.

To me the issue isn't really about paying for GP info, it's about Nott's licensing dept. making another unilateral policy up when imo they shouldn't have that authority.

Again, if I was a sceptic I'd suggest this is a desperate attempt to show the public they are doing something in the face of the violent crime epidemic they're suffering!

I totally agree with the above from born hunter. 

From what was said to me by one foe it is a situation that your application would be sort of held in limbo because of non compliance of Information and they would make it difficult by only issuing section 7 temporary tickets which only allow you to be in possession.  Not able to buy ammo or use them out in the fìeld ect. Seeing as this already happens and some people are waiting anything up to a year for their cert it's just an extention  of poòr service that both the orgs and the gov has let them get away with. This is why I say basc is useless.  subserviant Words such as requesting,  consulting, partnering ect just aren't going to achieve anything. Instead of spending money on motors for themselves they ought to be launching the lawyers at the situation. You may have noticed the lack of organization participation in any of these threads to inform the shooting community what the score is. They should be pressing the chief constables really hard. And if they are they should be informing us..it doesn't cost any postage on  forums

[Alsone 789]

17 minutes ago, Meece said:

they ought to be launching the lawyers at the situation. 

What are they going to sue for?

The problem is the legislation. The rules surrounding licensing are not laws, just guidelines. Whilst some judges will take the line in a licensing appeal that the police should follow the guidelines and award a cert where they aren't followed, the simple fact is the Police Forces involved aren't breaking the law by not following them. They're not legally bound to follow them, there are no penalties for not doing so (besides the risk that a judge might award a cert where they refused one by departing from the guidelines). The result is any Police force can simply make up any rule it likes, as we saw in the past with some making up their own forms, and they're doing nothing illegal by doing so.

It's a total farce. The Home Office sets the guidelines, and some forces simply ignore them or the parts they don't like, or just make up their own rules completely.

Where else does this happen? Imagine if you're driving down at Motorway through a county at 70mph and you get pulled over and given a ticket because the county force have decided that despite the 70mph signs it's 40mph in their county, or imagine going to the benefits office unemployed and being told you don't qualify because your city has decided that benefits are for people with medical reports proving their genetic heritage only, and you can't afford a medical report. This is essentially what is happening with firearms and has been for years. The Government sets one set of rules based on expert opinion, and some individual forces take a look and decide because they're non binding , to depart from the bits they don't like. It's really is a total joke.

Lets not also forget doctors are behind this as well. Many are conscientious objectors to firearms presumably because they fail to understand the distinction between sporting use and illegally held weapons. They blame injuries and deaths on firearm legal ownership when almost entirely it's illegal weapons and criminals / criminal activity such as drugs behind them that are responsible. In my opinion, they fail to see the lax laws in the US and UK as different. Many seem to fail to accept that no legal system is ever 100% water tight and so believe no-one should ever own one. It's a bit like banning cars because of what happened in France. You can't ban everything just in case a terrorist or someone ordinary goes off the reservation once in a blue moon, just take sensible precautions to prevent it happening in the first place whilst lawful users of cars or (guns) go about their everyday business.

Then there's the fee side, where some just want to earn money out of supplying a summary to the police or to put people off by the fee.

What is needed is for the guidelines to cease to be guidelines but laws, with severe penalties for forces that depart from them. Only then can you have a licensing system that works and is fair to all parties. 

TBH, I think a total overhaul of the laws are needed. The problem is, with most of the country brainwashed into thinking gun ownership = mass shootings, the only desire in Government seems to be increase requirements on legal holders even though legal owners are not responsible for almost all of firearm crime.

To my mind the following changes are needed:

1. Home Office Guidelines to be laws and legally binding with severe automatic financial penalties for departure for both individuals Officers and forces

2. A more friendly licensing system consisting of loss of ticket warnings for breaches or small fixed fines, not 5 years in prison because your cert runs out without you realising it, or automatic revocation / imprisonment risk because you accidentally left a round / box of rounds in the general safe instead of the separate top part. It's time to stop criminalising legal owners and instead start working with them where mistakes are made to increase safety through an escalating system of coaching / multiple warnings > small fines > revocation, for all licensing mistakes, and all but the most deliberately illegal acts or warnings the person is unstable, with the latter 2 being immediate revocation. People make mistakes sometimes, such as letting licences lapse, crossing onto the wrong piece of land, leaving a round out or dropping one in the house accidentally without realising. It shouldn't potentially result in 5 yrs as with an illegally held weapon.

Yes there is a discretion but who wants to balance their freedom on discretion? Separate out licensing from illegal possession laws.Make it a friendly warning based system, verbal at 1st, written if repeated, small fines if further repeats for the same thing, then suspension / revocation if all the other measures fail. Most shooters value their ticket more than anything else.

3. Doctors need to be bound to supply reports as part of the NHS service - after all they supply reports when referring patients to other doctors and the Police are part of the state, plus it's hardly a report, just a summary of history which once completed only needs to be updated. Again introduce penalties for those who refuse or submit biased reports such as financial for the former and striking off for the latter.

4. An overhaul of self defence. It's ridiculous you can only stand by and watch your neighbours house get burgled for fear of getting imprisoned for holding the criminals at gun point or using self defence if then physically attacked. Reasonable force needs to be firmly defined and boundaries set that allow people to intervene in burglaries of their house / car or their immediate neighbours, or mugging or attacks immediately outside of their property or where they shoot. Boundaries need to be set as to what steps can be taken and when. Sensible boundaries that don't allow criminals to escape with criminal acts, but equally don't allow excessive force. Boundaries that allow for occasional mistakes caused by the stress of the moment. Boundaries that allow for lethal force if attacked (bearing in mind the loss of control of the weapon will probably result in death for the owner).

5. Consideration given to licensing small display fireworks under shotgun / firearm licences. Many people miss the more powerful fireworks you used to be able to buy, but were withdrawn due to misuse by thugs. One way around this would be allow those with shotgun / firearms licences to buy these. The reasoning here is that firstly you're checked for firearms ownership and so responsible and secondly no-one is going to want to risk their licence by abusing fireworks so it fulfils both criteria of keeping them out of the wrong hands and ensuring responsible usage. 

Just my  opinions.

 

[Born Hunter 17,622]

1 hour ago, Meece said:

I totally agree with the above from born hunter. 

From what was said to me by one foe it is a situation that your application would be sort of held in limbo because of non compliance of Information and they would make it difficult by only issuing section 7 temporary tickets which only allow you to be in possession.  Not able to buy ammo or use them out in the fìeld ect. Seeing as this already happens and some people are waiting anything up to a year for their cert it's just an extention  of poòr service that both the orgs and the gov has let them get away with. This is why I say basc is useless.  subserviant Words such as requesting,  consulting, partnering ect just aren't going to achieve anything. Instead of spending money on motors for themselves they ought to be launching the lawyers at the situation. You may have noticed the lack of organization participation in any of these threads to inform the shooting community what the score is. They should be pressing the chief constables really hard. And if they are they should be informing us..it doesn't cost any postage on  forums

I just don't think any single organisation has the clout to demand anything. Something I have pondered on recently is the creation of a Fieldsports and Countryside Council formed with the sole mandate of dealing with all of these political matters. There is too much dissent amongst 'us' to expect everyone to join a single org' and not to mention the power that would give that org' and therefore the ensuing corruption and lack of accountability. By maintaining a free number of independent bodies we as individuals have the freedom to support whichever one we feel best represents us. But that is at the cost of political power (sum of the parts etc), hence the need for an alliance/council with each org having a seat at the table. The constitution of this council would need thought to best maintain it's union but I think it is a proven strategy that should be considered at least.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Born Hunter

[ChrisJones 7,973]

4 hours ago, Born Hunter said:

Pay the 40 quid and grumble or lose ya license and gamble thousands..... I'm happy to be the test case, but I ain't paying for it and I need a bit more guarantee when I'm gambling what liberty I have for the sake of everyone else.

I getcha, mate I just think it's a travesty. It boils my p*ss and it doesn't even involve me.

[Born Hunter 17,622]

21 minutes ago, ChrisJones said:

I getcha, mate I just think it's a travesty. It boils my p*ss and it doesn't even involve me.

It is a travesty but I suppose that's what happens when we are a tiny minority who largely don't give a shit. If I lost my right to hunt/shoot/be outdoors, it'd be like a f***ing earthquake hit my life. It'd be far worse than losing my house and job. For many people, it isn't like that, they play golf or whatever, have a nice family life, shooting is just a hobby. I would 100% be the subject of an aggressive BASC legal action, supported by the shooting community. But why should I go it alone when 99% wont give a shit.

That's how tyranny works though, right. They allow you to keep just enough of your liberty to remain docile, to make the cost of fighting not worth the effort.

It's compounded further by the fact that a GP reference, really, should be mandatory in the UK. But that is for certain elected officials to decide, not appointed.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Born Hunter

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Fair one, mate. I fully understand what you're saying. I just reached a point in my life where my ideas weren't compatible with living there anymore. Too many boxes checked and enough was enough.

I hit 'F*ck This Sh*t' o'clock in 2007 and voted with my feet. It was the only way I could change anything for the better. I used to believe that Britains firearms laws, were a good thing but seeing things from the other perspective I just see them as a draconian infringement of civil liberties. The pendulum has swung so far the other way you'd laugh your c*ck off!

[Underdog 2,337]

On 18/09/2018 at 13:52, Born Hunter said:

It is a travesty but I suppose that's what happens when we are a tiny minority who largely don't give a shit. If I lost my right to hunt/shoot/be outdoors, it'd be like a f***ing earthquake hit my life. It'd be far worse than losing my house and job. For many people, it isn't like that, they play golf or whatever, have a nice family life, shooting is just a hobby. I would 100% be the subject of an aggressive BASC legal action, supported by the shooting community. But why should I go it alone when 99% wont give a shit.

That's how tyranny works though, right. They allow you to keep just enough of your liberty to remain docile, to make the cost of fighting not worth the effort.

It's compounded further by the fact that a GP reference, really, should be mandatory in the UK. But that is for certain elected officials to decide, not appointed.

If shooting and or hunting was severely restricted or banned I would return to the bow and go underground, off the radar.

If one is considered a criminal but is commiting no real crime then one may as well become a criminal!

Heck, druggies get away with it!

[riflehunter583 58]

if government wants to save children they need to stop letting bad people through the border or certain gangs rape and destroy young children. 

honest gun owners will be hit most by this

criminals will just get guns on the black market

in fact it seems some bad people are using acid now

wheres the gp report to buy acid?

My experience is police are frequently failing to stop crime or catch criminals. honest gun owners are a soft target

Edited September 23, 2018 by riflehunter583