.223 does the damage

[Deker 3,450]

6 hours ago, Alsone said:

 

10mm. In my opinion, best balance between stopping power and useability.

.357 Mag more powerful but almost exclusively, with a couple of exceptions, a revolver round which limits you to 5 shots. What might surprise a lot of people is unlike the movies, even the FBI MISS in a gun fight with 82% of their shots (18% hit rate). So having just 5 can be an issue. 

9mm, Law Enforcement choice but lacking a little in stopping power. Law Enforcement recently switched to 10mm for more stopping power, then switched back. I read they only changed back to 9mm from 10mm, after accuracy dropped on the range tests and some women found 10mm a little too much gun. Many say 10mm wasn't the issue but a lack of practice and familiarity with the new firearm. I really couldn't comment, beyond saying from what I've seen, it appears to be a really good accurate gun with a significant step up in destructive effect from 9mm for only marginally more recoil.

40 S&W use to be Law Enforcement choice before 9mm, but it's weaker when it comes to stopping power.

500 S&W too powerful Issues with pass through (ie killing the innocent person behind!) and recoil makes it very difficult to get off a subsequent shots. Also the guns are huge and weigh, lots, making them impossible to conceal, draw, fire quick follow ups. Has the power of a .223 in a handgun!

They do make a handgun in .22 Hornet (Taurus Raging Hornet), but .22 Hornet not that impressive in the short barrel.

 

Crumbs Alsone, it was tongue in cheek, don't start another one because of something you read!

ANY of the calibres you mention are Impressive when put in the right place at the right distance!

If you have any doubt, stand 50 yards in front of anyone with a pitifully weak (in comparison with everything you mention) .22lr, then you will know what effective is, but only for a very brief moment!

 

 

[Underdog 2,337]

Why does everyone start talking about killing people when it comes to handguns 

I for one would love to hunt with one so 5 shots in a 357 revolver would be just fine.

Not interested in killing anyone.

 

U.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

Quote

10mm. In my opinion, best balance between stopping power and useability.

.357 Mag more powerful but almost exclusively, with a couple of exceptions, a revolver round which limits you to 5 shots. What might surprise a lot of people is unlike the movies, even the FBI MISS in a gun fight with 82% of their shots (18% hit rate). So having just 5 can be an issue. 

9mm, Law Enforcement choice but lacking a little in stopping power. Law Enforcement recently switched to 10mm for more stopping power, then switched back. I read they only changed back to 9mm from 10mm, after accuracy dropped on the range tests and some women found 10mm a little too much gun. Many say 10mm wasn't the issue but a lack of practice and familiarity with the new firearm. I really couldn't comment, beyond saying from what I've seen, it appears to be a really good accurate gun with a significant step up in destructive effect from 9mm for only marginally more recoil.

40 S&W use to be Law Enforcement choice before 9mm, but it's weaker when it comes to stopping power.

500 S&W too powerful Issues with pass through (ie killing the innocent person behind!) and recoil makes it very difficult to get off a subsequent shots. Also the guns are huge and weigh, lots, making them impossible to conceal, draw, fire quick follow ups. Has the power of a .223 in a handgun!

They do make a handgun in .22 Hornet (Taurus Raging Hornet), but .22 Hornet not that impressive in the short barrel.
 

8

9MM is down to mag capacity, cost, and availability which is why many are switching. Ballistics on modern LE ammo takes away any of the old issues facing 9MM.

Using anything other than LE rounds in a recognised LE calibre, in a defensive situation, will require a very good lawyer.

IMO there are very few bad guns. Even fewer bad calibres. Weak link is always the shooter.

Edited July 10, 2018 by ChrisJones
Inserted Quote For Clarity

[Alsone 789]

6 hours ago, Underdog said:

Why does everyone start talking about killing people when it comes to handguns 

I for one would love to hunt with one so 5 shots in a 357 revolver would be just fine.

Not interested in killing anyone.

 

U.

Because self defence is their primary usage, at least in countries like the states. For dispatch, I doubt the calibre is that critical as any handgun at point blank is going to be capable of killing. I'm pretty sure vets dispatch injured horses and cattle with a .22 pistol.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Alsone

[ChrisJones 7,973]

7 hours ago, Underdog said:

I for one would love to hunt with one so 5 shots in a 357 revolver would be just fine.

Sorry U I seem to have missed this post 1st time around which made my response to Alsone look a little off...

I've had the pleasure of shooting the Thompson Contender G2 in .223 and .45LC. Great fun! The .357 loads I've seen seem to be lacking some umpf though. I had the S&W 626 for a while and the factory loads seemed really underpowered. Shot great as a .38Special but the Magnum rounds were disappointing. Saying that I don't reload. Ruger Super Black/Redhawks in .44Mag seem to the prefered pistol hunting round this way.

 

 

[Underdog 2,337]

5 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

Sorry U I seem to have missed this post 1st time around which made my response to Alsone look a little off...

I've had the pleasure of shooting the Thompson Contender G2 in .223 and .45LC. Great fun! The .357 loads I've seen seem to be lacking some umpf though. I had the S&W 626 for a while and the factory loads seemed really underpowered. Shot great as a .38Special but the Magnum rounds were disappointing. Saying that I don't reload. Ruger Super Black/Redhawks in .44Mag seem to the prefered pistol hunting round this way.

 

 

I love 44mag. I remember chipping small pebbles out the berm with near max loads every shot from a six inch Smith.

I remember hunting rabbit and taking a fox with a buckmark too but that's another story........

[IanB 0]

I use a .223 in 1in12 twist with 40g vmax rounds its doing 3700fps and has dropped everything on the spot I have shot, nice flat shooting round in fact I was tempted by a .204 but the .223 with 40gr vmax and 1:12, the trajectory is neigh on identical, but the .223 has much more choice in every aspect.. I also use a .243 but since getting the .223 I always use this now as its minimal recoil, cheap to reload and flat shooting, love it!

[Alsone 789]

On 11/07/2018 at 00:40, ChrisJones said:

Sorry U I seem to have missed this post 1st time around which made my response to Alsone look a little off...

I've had the pleasure of shooting the Thompson Contender G2 in .223 and .45LC. Great fun! The .357 loads I've seen seem to be lacking some umpf though. I had the S&W 626 for a while and the factory loads seemed really underpowered. Shot great as a .38Special but the Magnum rounds were disappointing. Saying that I don't reload. Ruger Super Black/Redhawks in .44Mag seem to the prefered pistol hunting round this way.

 

 

If you want .223 performance in a handgun, you want a .500 S&W (I mean literally .223 performance!). However, the gun is ridiculously large and heavy (although they do now make a 3" and 5" version"). Probably OK for hunting if you have strong wrists. I'm not sure I'd describe .357 magnum as lacking oomph, it's the most powerful mainstream handgun calibre behind .44 Magnum (of course there are several calibres above). However out of the common calibres of .38, 40S&W, 9mm, 10mm, .357 magnum has the most destructive power. It's held back as a self defence calibre by the lack of revolver magazine capacity (less of an issue for handgun hunting non dangerous game, obviously). Maybe some of the perceived lack of firepower comes down to the relatively smaller recoil from .357 because .44 magnum, apart from being a bit more powerful (50% more energy although note it's only 750 vs 550 ft lbs approximately), also has twice the case capacity (37 gr vs 26gr), and so has much heavier recoil.

just for fun, .500S&W:
 

 

 

There's a picture of the bullets on this page: http://www.christiangunowner.com/smithandwesson500magnum.html

On the left, .44 Magnum, in the centre.....
 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Alsone

[Underdog 2,337]

Surprised 357sig never took off!

[ChrisJones 7,973]

On 13/07/2018 at 02:42, Alsone said:

If you want .223 performance in a handgun, you want a .500 S&W (I mean literally .223 performance!).

That's fair enough but I wasn't really interested in anything more than the novelty value. Just that it was fun to be able to shoot .223 from a pistol. TC Contender is a versatile platform that would make for a decent hunting platform, IMHO.

On 13/07/2018 at 02:42, Alsone said:

I'm not sure I'd describe .357 magnum as lacking oomph, it's the most powerful mainstream handgun calibre behind .44 Magnum (of course there are several calibres above).

I was referring to the current factory loads available on the US market. There's no dispute that the .357Mag isn't capable but you have to reload and you'll require a decent revolver that will cope with the tolerances. My S&W 686 cost twice the amount of my Glock17. I could only use LE .38Specials while on duty. It was kind of limited in that capacity on both oomph and shot capacity. You could run some hot +P home loads through it but they'd be useless for duty carry and exclusively for hunting. I understand this is a hunting forum though, so my day to day requirements aren't really topical.

On 13/07/2018 at 02:42, Alsone said:

However out of the common calibres of .38, 40S&W, 9mm, 10mm, .357 magnum has the most destructive power.

I tend to agree but you cannot carry the type of ammunition that makes the .357 shine in a civilian self-defence setting. If you do you'll need a very good lawyer should you use one in self-defence.

On 13/07/2018 at 02:42, Alsone said:

It's held back as a self defence calibre by the lack of revolver magazine capacity (less of an issue for handgun hunting non dangerous game, obviously).

Partly but also because of size, weight, recoil, the power of factory LE rounds and overall cost. Sledgehammer to crack a nut.

On 13/07/2018 at 02:42, Alsone said:

Maybe some of the perceived lack of firepower comes down to the relatively smaller recoil from .357 because .44 magnum, apart from being a bit more powerful (50% more energy although note it's only 750 vs 550 ft lbs approximately), also has twice the case capacity (37 gr vs 26gr), and so has much heavier recoil.

The perceived lack of firepower is from the current factory loads on the market. They're underpowered and there's a lot of agreement on this in the industry. This comes from public liability concerns rather than the capability of the firearm.

The fact is that to get the most out of a .357Mag you need all the reloading gear and the time, money, and energy to maximise its performance. For 99% of shooters, it is much easier, cheaper, time-saving, to buy a common calibre with LE defence rounds that will perform exceptionally under any circumstances thrown at it. That's why revolver popularity is waning. Nothing wrong with the guns or the calibre but not everyone has the same enthusiasm when it comes to firearms and this is why they're mainly used by enthusiasts.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

 

On 13/07/2018 at 10:32, Underdog said:

Surprised 357sig never took off!

That truly is a shame although they were up against it when the did release it. The .40S&W had just come out and Glock had just turned the LE market on its head.

Saying that military calibres are always going to be popular and because of mass production ultimately cheaper to feed.

[Underdog 2,337]

Where revolver cartridges shine and are perfect for Britain but not popular are from rifles and carbines.

I had huge success with my 357 w94.

I would plink that rifle to 600 yards on full power and chip rabbits on sqib loads, bullet backwards.

 

U.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

17 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Where revolver cartridges shine and are perfect for Britain but not popular are from rifles and carbines.

My neighbour has the 1892 Taylor's Huntsman lever action carbine. It's nice shooting and I'm surprised it isn't more popular.

[Alsone 789]

6 hours ago, ChrisJones said:

I tend to agree but you cannot carry the type of ammunition that makes the .357 shine in a civilian self-defence setting. If you do you'll need a very good lawyer should you use one in self-defence.

 

I'm presuming there you're referring to the Harold Fish case where the prosecutor claimed that 10mm was too powerful for self defence and it's use therefore amounted to murder. Although Mr, Fish did go to jail due to arguably failings in the US Justice System, the fact the decision was later reversed and he was released, hopefully that case should ensure that the whole argument of having too powerful a gun for self defence doesn't arise again.

That said, in the context of the rest of this thread, here in the UK handguns are banned for self defence and have only limited availability for humane dispatch (usually of deer) by sportsman, and all larger animals by vets. Even then although there's no calibre restriction, many police forces tend to only licence either .22 or .38 (usually the former), and often only in a single shot format.

[ChrisJones 7,973]

2 hours ago, Alsone said:

I'm presuming there you're referring to the Harold Fish case where the prosecutor claimed that 10mm was too powerful for self defence and it's use therefore amounted to murder. Although Mr, Fish did go to jail due to arguably failings in the US Justice System, the fact the decision was later reversed and he was released, hopefully that case should ensure that the whole argument of having too powerful a gun for self defence doesn't arise again.

It's not so much a matter of power it's a matter of too much gun for the occasion. A lot depends on your circumstances. If you're out in the backcountry and all you're carrying is a .357 hunting firearm then no one is going to scream too loud if you have to use it for self-defence. If your life is threatened you can use whatever you have at hand...

But...

Using anything other than a current duty issue weapon and calibre for law enforcement will require the user to be able to justify its use under extreme circumstances. A prosecution attorney is going to drag your personal life through the courts and attempt to besmirch your good name in front of a jury of your peers. If you're carrying firearms and ammunition which are the go-to selection of the local police you have the general understanding that they're fit for purpose. That's why the popular calibres are so popular. You're trying to present yourself as a model constitutional protecting citizen, not someone with a gun fetish and an itch to pull it out at the slightest provocation.

If you're carrying a home load that can hit someone in the next county you fail your Rule #3 due diligence. Know your target. What lies behind it and what lies beyond it. Having too powerful a handgun can have dramatic real-world consequences. If you've ever sat in a courtroom and watched someone trying to explain accidentally hitting a bystander with a magnum round you'll appreciate the term just because you can carry one doesn't mean you should.

Edited July 16, 2018 by ChrisJones
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