Would you breed from a jacker?

[Rabbit Hunter 6,608]

I was more aiming it at the original poster tbh mate, he seems to think or be saying that non workers should be bred from despite offering no personal experience from such things. I know sometimes this is necessary, but even as you said earlier, Rip produced over Buster, Mullet produced over Molly etc. but they were still all digging dogs, none were failures, that's all I'm getting at.

[Kerny92 1,246]

2 minutes ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

I was more aiming it at the original poster tbh mate, he seems to think or be saying that non workers should be bred from despite offering no personal experience from such things. I know sometimes this is necessary, but even as you said earlier, Rip produced over Buster, Mullet produced over Molly etc. but they were still all digging dogs, none were failures, that's all I'm getting at.

Where do i seem to think that? Stop jumping to conclusions again will you. I just thought i would start a little debate on the matter to see everyones thoughts. Like i said i know it does happen and i know they can put good dogs on the ground.

[dillydog 8,414]

I haven't a clue mate, I never intensionaly bred either of the litters by Sid, he stole the bitch when she was 8 years old. I phoned my vet to stop the litter and he advised me not to do it if I still wanted to take a litter from her. The second litter I was in traction in hospital when it happened.  If I was honest I hadn't got any confidence in the second litter, I just went through the motions and got pleasantly surprised lol.

I was talking about the same thing today with a terrier man I respect and neither of us could come up with an answer.  Like I said, I try in my head to breed to the extended family.  I'm not stupid, I would never breed from a coward regardless of how it's bred but the question was would you breed from a jacker.............as we all know, there's plenty of reasons terriers quit without it being through cowardice. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by dillydog

[shaneg 2,577]

3 minutes ago, dillydog said:

I haven't a clue mate, I never intensionaly bred either of the litter by Sid, he stole the butch when she was 8 years old. I phoned my vet to stop the litter and he advised me not to do it if I still wanted to take a litter from her. The second litter I was in traction in hospital when it happened.  If I was honest I hadn't got any confidence in the second litter, I just went through the motions and got pleasantly surprised lol.

I was talking about the same thing today with a terrier man I respect and neither of us could come up with an answer.  Like I said, I try I'm my head to breed to the extended family.  I'm not stupid, I would never breed from a coward regardless of how it's bred but the question was would you breed from a jacker.............as we all know, there's plenty of reasons terriers quit without it being through cowardice. 

I had a pup for the first litter and the second and after the first litter being no good I had little or no confidence in the second pup so I gave him to my mate who also had a pup from both litters. I should have kept the pup

[foxdropper 17,092]

9 hours ago, dillydog said:

That's a simplistic way of looking at it FD, I know where you're coming from but I don't agree. There's hundreds of terriers that get moved on or pts year on year through bad entering,  bad socialisation and so on. If you went with THL  massive  "cull hard" , PTS, never breed from this and that and so on you'd think the country would be full of top notch terriers............sadly we know it' not.

As I've said 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4 in breeding,  I'm not kennel blind and I'm not stupid either.

The best examples I can give from my one lifetime experience is these breedings. ......Buster and Rip, litter brothers, Buster was one in a million,  Rip was no slouch but he wasn't Buster. Although it could be down to the limited number of bitches they were used on it was Rip that threw the quality pups. Molly and Mullet, again litter sisters, Molly was one of the best bitches I've ever dug to and owned, Mullet was a liability,  in short she was tapped ! Mullet couldn't lace Molly's boots, it was Mullet that threw the quality pups. Treacle, my old bitch had a mistake litter to Sid, nothing from the litter was anything to write home about. The same dog caught her again a few years on and the whole litter are flying.  

The more I see, the less I know, the only thing I've learned in a lifetime of terriers is to take my time and trust the family as a whole.

But your not breeding off out and out jackers mate are you ,or your keeping that bit quiet lol.Ive bred from mediocre bitches but never a poor dog .These two here will see me out now though .

[dillydog 8,414]

I've never bred off a jacker but if the rest of the extended family were all solid workers and for whatever reason you lost access to them I'd still take that risk. The same blood runs through the jackers veins as the good one's, perhaps it was poor entering or socialisation that ruined it's chances of becoming all it could be ?

I'm just playing devil's advocate mate, I'm old enough and wise enough to have seen plenty of examples of poor entering, and plenty of animals come good given a chance.

Edited June 15, 2018 by dillydog

[snizle06 202]

Same blood different genes

[Jerry71 269]

I've seen lads get pups from good working stock and payed crazy money because they thought they was getting a well bred pup from working kennel, dog so called jacked before it was two, then iv seen dog's that were fifty quid and grafted most it's life, it's what you put into them, enterd properly and not rushed most terriers will enter and same with lurchers,, 

[Liamboy 1,266]

11 hours ago, Rabbit Hunter said:

Well use it's brother or sister then, like I've already said, the ones that cling to the blood excuse are clutching at straws. Seen it countless times.

When your at the stage of having to use a failed dog your on a slippery slope and it's only a matter of time before more failures crop up. Be better to use something else similar 

[dillydog 8,414]

That wasn't the question Liam, and the way I'd see it I'd have a good honest look at why it failed, the state of the family and if it was going stagnant I'd have no hesitation in moving along and changing what I keep...... life's to short.

[dillydog 8,414]

1 hour ago, snizle06 said:

Same blood different genes

Same blood, the genetic makeup is a lottery, hence the bad in litters and the success in one litter over the same way bred litter a second time around. That's why no one's got the answer to a perfect line, it doesn't exist, only in books and THL

[Kaiser Sozé 282]

It seems a simple question, but there's a million different variables and questions to ask before giving any kind of an answer. Once I suss a terrier is substandard it's gone as soon as possible, never mind being bred off. I just couldn't stomach it. I don't think there's any excuse breeding off a substandard dog, because if the line is quality, there will always be a plan B somewhere. Therefore let's take it that the question refers to a bitch. First off and most important is there a plan B you can use? If not then how well bred is she? How well was she reared and entered? Was she in heat? Was she sick? (Genuinely? Always be honest make no excuses), What age was she? Was she overloaded with work? (Every dog can be cracked, there's a difference between truely testing a dog and setting it up for a fall!) Has she had  6,7,8 or more seasons of hard graft and always come up Trumps before finally jacking? The list goes on... however if I was down to my last WELL BRED bitch for some genuine reason or other (ie. Not because the line has failed miserably for the past so many seasons etc) off a proven line ive worked and trust since year dot. Definitely I would think I would take a calculated punt... breeding for my own work purposes (money never coming into it).. I think!

Edited June 14, 2018 by Kaiser Sozé

[dogmandont 9,317]

I know of one yard where if a terrier makes it past it’s third full season it’s got the makings of something really special, they will see more graft in them three seasons than a hell of a lot of terriers will see in their lifetime,  no excuses made for them no question mark left unanswered. I have a bitch here of a dog from that yard that started working half hearted after five seasons did it bother me, not one bit because I know how these dogs are tested.

[Bryan 1,361]

If only there were some hard rules we could all follow for success. It's all very simple, but not very easy. 

One great line I got from a guy who has a working line since the 70's. He offered a months wages way back for a bitch, I asked how good was she that he offered that. He said she wasn't perfect and "had thrown a few knacks" which would be more than enough for the THL massive to have shot her 10 times over.

But he said "I KNEW she'd produce!"

[Rabbit Hunter 6,608]

I was looking at the original question from a different point of view I think, I was more thinking about the bullshitters that sell dogs on the pretence of 'oh it's well bred the blood's there' regardless of the dogs ability. Looking at it from a different POV of a genuine man that has kept the same strain then is pushed into a corner to breed then of course use the dog, what's to lose?