Born Hunter 17,975 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Lets ban dogs! How many kids are killed by pet dogs? How many adults are attacked by them? We don't need pet dogs and clearly banning all dogs but service dogs would reduce these atrocities! Better ban dogs! If it saves just one life, it'll have been worthwhile! #dogcontrol #whatdoyouneedadogfor #bandogs 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Accip74 7,112 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 .......now you've got him started.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
riohog 5,939 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Lets ban dogs! How many kids are killed by pet dogs? How many adults are attacked by them? We don't need pet dogs and clearly banning all dogs but service dogs would reduce these atrocities! Better ban dogs! If it saves just one life, it'll have been worthwhile! #dogcontrol #whatdoyouneedadogfor #bandogs ffs dont ban dogs ive 2 full bags of dog food wtf will i do with it? ban skateboards i fkn had them dangerous things them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 51,684 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I am aware it's just my opinion, but folk who call for bigger government in the form of regulation (however well meaning) are doing a massive dis-service to society as a whole. You just don't have the right to give them that power over your fellow people or future generations........it's criminal imho Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Accip74 7,112 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I am aware it's just my opinion, but folk who call for bigger government in the form of regulation (however well meaning) are doing a massive dis-service to society as a whole. You just don't have the right to give them that power over your fellow people or future generations........it's criminal imho That's great, as long as you can see that through, even when it conflicts with your own personal beliefs & feelings. That's when it can unravel. I would say Born is probably one of the best examples on here of someone who believes in the freedom to do something, even when conflicts with his own personal view...... As we've discussed in the past, there are a few things you are not happy about people having the freedom to do, even when it doesn't infringe on your own life, so how much liberty do you really want people to have? Just when suits you or can you live & let live? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 51,684 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) I am aware it's just my opinion, but folk who call for bigger government in the form of regulation (however well meaning) are doing a massive dis-service to society as a whole. You just don't have the right to give them that power over your fellow people or future generations........it's criminal imho That's great, as long as you can see that through, even when it conflicts with your own personal beliefs & feelings. That's when it can unravel. I would say Born is probably one of the best examples on here of someone who believes in the freedom to do something, even when conflicts with his own personal view......As we've discussed in the past, there are a few things you are not happy about people having the freedom to do, even when it doesn't infringe on your own life, so how much liberty do you really want people to have? Just when suits you or can you live & let live? Good point mate and one I am very aware of.I know that there is an amount of hypocrisy in me with some of my views, in particuler when it comes to legalising gay and transgender things, drugs and also with abortion. Lets take abbortion for example, many who would be anti gun would be pro abbortion (not all I admit ) so they don't see a problem with 46 million infants being slaughtered every year but they do see a problem if someone knocks over 58 adults with an AR15. but hands up, yes, there are a small amount of things I don't think have any place in the world. Edited to add: Thinking about it, if I was asked to trade my very few lines in the sand for a massive reduction in government then I almost certainly would. You can make things socially unacceptable within a social group, we don't need government to do that for us either. Edited October 3, 2017 by WILF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,975 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I am aware it's just my opinion, but folk who call for bigger government in the form of regulation (however well meaning) are doing a massive dis-service to society as a whole. You just don't have the right to give them that power over your fellow people or future generations........it's criminal imho That's great, as long as you can see that through, even when it conflicts with your own personal beliefs & feelings. That's when it can unravel. I would say Born is probably one of the best examples on here of someone who believes in the freedom to do something, even when conflicts with his own personal view...... People just think I'm a gun nut or only value liberty because much of hunting is banned. But it's really more fundamental than that for me. Thanks for noticing that. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Accip74 7,112 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I am aware it's just my opinion, but folk who call for bigger government in the form of regulation (however well meaning) are doing a massive dis-service to society as a whole. You just don't have the right to give them that power over your fellow people or future generations........it's criminal imho That's great, as long as you can see that through, even when it conflicts with your own personal beliefs & feelings. That's when it can unravel. I would say Born is probably one of the best examples on here of someone who believes in the freedom to do something, even when conflicts with his own personal view...... People just think I'm a gun nut or only value liberty because much of hunting is banned. But it's really more fundamental than that for me. Thanks for noticing that. It took me a while to get past the 'gun nut' thing, but I got you in the end.....;-) 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Accip74 7,112 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) I am aware it's just my opinion, but folk who call for bigger government in the form of regulation (however well meaning) are doing a massive dis-service to society as a whole. You just don't have the right to give them that power over your fellow people or future generations........it's criminal imho That's great, as long as you can see that through, even when it conflicts with your own personal beliefs & feelings. That's when it can unravel. I would say Born is probably one of the best examples on here of someone who believes in the freedom to do something, even when conflicts with his own personal view......As we've discussed in the past, there are a few things you are not happy about people having the freedom to do, even when it doesn't infringe on your own life, so how much liberty do you really want people to have? Just when suits you or can you live & let live? Good point mate and one I am very aware of.I know that there is an amount of hypocrisy in me with some of my views, in particuler when it comes to legalising gay and transgender things, drugs and also with abortion. Lets take abbortion for example, many who would be anti gun would be pro abbortion (not all I admit ) so they don't see a problem with 46 million infants being slaughtered every year but they do see a problem if someone knocks over 58 adults with an AR15. but hands up, yes, there are a small amount of things I don't think have any place in the world. I'm not knocking you, I'm the same in the way you've just described..........I'll take the Homo's, weed & abortion over automatic weapons any day of the week....haha.......but that's just me, I'll take away one thing & give you another.......but what's more damaging? The list is endless. I'm all for more liberty, but like most, I probably haven't got the stomach to take it to it's full conclusion.......;-) Edited October 3, 2017 by Accip74 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jukel123 9,985 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) .......now you've got him started.... Moi? Surely not! BH, Wilf,Hydro I agree with most of the points you make on the principle of big government and human rights. But sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and say enough is efucking enough. I just checked some stats re- gun violence in America. They are not selective, slanted stats chosen to advance a particular argument.. I could quote a lot more. There have been 1.4 million gun related deaths in America between the years 1968 and 2011. Most of these were deaths gang related. In 2015 there were 572 mass shootings killing 475 people and wounding 1870. Of those mass shootings, 64 were school shootings. It doesn't particularly matter if the guns were held legally or illegally, it's the fact that America is awash with guns (300 million) and are therefore easy to get hold of. Surely you must accept that some laws are good laws? Would you drive your car under the influence? Smoke in you car with children in the vehicle? Exceed the speed limit driving past a school? Would you let your dog crap in the school playing field? Would you allow paedophiles to teach? After all, f**k all to do with the government is it? If a member of your family was holidaying in the states and was senselessly gunned down in the cross fire between two gangs, would you still believe we should adopt American gun culture? After all principles are important aren't they? Responsibility not regulation is a great slogan but in the real world there are a lot of unstable, immature and evil people who cannot or will not act responsibly. Wilf I agree with your point about abortion . Never, ever been able to get my head around that moral argument. But my Mrs tells me to stop being pompous and get real about the issue.Perhaps there's a parallell with gun control? Edited October 3, 2017 by jukel123 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,975 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Jukel credit to you because I think that that is a fair and solid representation of the gun control lobbie's argument. So I commend you on that. I accept that I do and will cede liberty for security at times I feel it a valuable trade. All but the most fundamentalist and ardent 2A proponents will not interpret that constitutional right in it's most absolute way. As is quite legitimately pointed out by the likes of you, that would mean that citizens should have the right to posses nuclear weapons! So even now there is compromise by the vast vast majority. I'm a British national, so I don't have this right but I am a massive proponent of the 2nd. Which of course makes me a tiny minority in the UK. I say this because I want to make it clear that I'm not scared of losing my guns in the face of this, I'm simply a supporter of what I consider this most fundamental principle in a liberal democracy. I'm not immune to all this death and injustice. This abuse of what I consider a necessity constantly provokes me to consider whether ceding some liberty would be worth the security it would allegedly bring! How much would I be willing to impede the people's ability to defend their own lives from an attacker? To enjoy their sporting hobbies? To defend their democracy from tyranny? We've already established I'm not so liberty focused I'll let anyone have a nuclear weapon, so why won't I budge and support more rigorous control? I can't help but fail to believe that any control short of total control will have any meaningful impact on security and total control is just unacceptable to me. certainly not at the expense of the people's ability to fight tyranny. These fuckers find a way, they just do. In this case he converted legally held semi autos to full auto. In the UK mass shootings continued after pistol and semi auto bans but with a shotgun and rimfire. Even with how hard it is to get black market AKs in the UK it has not prevented those that wish us harm finding other methods to carry out mass killings. In Europe the black market is a good source of weapons to carry out mass killings and as such no gun control would help them. Maybe there would be lives saved, maybe. But there is a cost. This is really simple and you have gotten right to the crux of this in your post. It's a balance of liberty vs promised security and for people like me it's not an economical trade. PS. folks keep saying I want to impose US gun laws on the UK. Just want to straighten that one out, I DO NOT. I would support that right as I consider it of fundamental importance but I'm not a dictator. The people of the UK have no appetite for that sort of freedom, so be it. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJones 7,975 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 51,684 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Born Hunter as always, you have put it much better than an uneducated bloke like me ever could. Jukel, I completely concur with Born Hunters sentiment re: your post mate. I'll say this in my very own uneducated way, I just don't think you can legislate for insanity......no matter what you do, you can't and it's unfair to make perfectly normal, nice people pay the price in an attempt to do so. Governments (and the very mediocre people that make up those governments) just can't be trusted with people's liberty. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lenmcharristar 10,409 Posted October 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Born Hunter as always, you have put it much better than an uneducated bloke like me ever could. Jukel, I completely concur with Born Hunters sentiment re: your post mate. I'll say this in my very own uneducated way, I just don't think you can legislate for insanity......no matter what you do, you can't and it's unfair to make perfectly normal, nice people pay the price in an attempt to do so. Governments (and the very mediocre people that make up those governments) just can't be trusted with people's liberty. spot on wilf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hydropotesinermis 724 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Born hunter has hit the nail on the head. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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