BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Yep OK sure pal rewirte history all you want, doesn't make it true It's was implemented by a Labour government and pushed for by the labour movement, that doesn't take anything away from the Liberals who were also involved. The proposals for a health service in the Beveridge report look nothing like what we call the NHS anyway, that's down to Bevan. I'm starting to wonder if you've ever read it TBH Pointless arguing with an idiot just to prove there's two in the room. Believe what you want son I'll stay on the side of facts Beveridge himself sought union input and called the TUC "the godfathers of the Beveridge report" The TUC backed the implementation of the report and along with Liberals campaigned for it. A Labour government was elected on a platform of immediate and full implementation of the Beveridge report. Aneurin Bevan as Health Secretary modified the proposals in the report and established the NHS. What exactly do you disagree with about the above? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 I have said for years, if political parties were serious about social mobility, getting people off welfare, having a good health service that was free to the neediest people in society, get serious about recycling, cut personal and national debt, then they would do away with national insurance tomorrow, make the tax rate 10 or 15 % across the board, do away council tax and all the other stealth charges and put the money and the responsibility back in the hands of people. That way, the "working man" gets to keep the fruit of his labours. Means test the health care, look after the genuinely sick and disabled, encourage marriage by granting further tax breaks in order to preserve family structures, do away with groups like the commission for racial equality........discourage diversity and promote inclusion and unity instead. The whole fecking system is arse upwards at the moment. Not really the position a social democrat party should be arguing though is it? Ideally we'd see a return to real socialist values in the Labour party and a Conservative party with values similar to what you've outlined instead of the race to the centre neoliberalism shite we've been stuck with. Why not?.....if it's the people's party why not trust the people ?......put the power back in the hands of people? What they have all been doing and done so far clearly isn't working is it ? Because they're supposed to be a democratic socialist party so should follow democratic socialist ideals? If you don't like those ideals the party isn't for you, simple as that. You can argue whether democratic socialism is the best way forward for the country or not but the Labour party isn't the organisation to be making those arguments, that's for their opposition to do. It's like if UKIP started campaigning for mass immigration and rejoining the EU, it would be a betrayal of their founding principles. Question for you mate, do you think that the majority of people in the UK are just too affluent for the old labour, socialist principals to be relevant any longer ?........a bit like nice pix said above, all that power to the worker and wealth redistribution is yesterday's news? I mean comparatively speaking, people in general are rich to a greater or lesser extent.......certainly much richer than when old labour was at the height of it's power. I think that probably was true for the last two decades or so but look around the country, people certainly don't feel like the system is working in their favour anymore. So many of the same issues that the labour movement fought to end are starting to return. People aren't happy with the way things are and that always leads to folk abandoning the centre, whether they go left or right depends on lots of things. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,196 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 I have to admit, that I thought the idea of BIG government was dead and that anyone in their right mind would see it's a crock but over 15 million people proved me wrong at the referendum so it shows how much I know ! Lol None of those people think the way I do, they obviously have no qualms about a diluted society with no identity, they don't care that they work mostly for the state.......so maybe there is hope for a Corbyn style Labour Party yet my friend. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 I have to admit, that I thought the idea of BIG government was dead and that anyone in their right mind would see it's a crock but over 15 million people proved me wrong at the referendum so it shows how much I know ! Lol None of those people think the way I do, they obviously have no qualms about a diluted society with no identity, they don't care that they work mostly for the state.......so maybe there is hope for a Corbyn style Labour Party yet my friend. You only have to look at the huge amounts of supporters he's brought into the Labour party and got engaged at a grassroots level to see his message resonates with at least some of the electorate. Does it resonate with enough folk to win a GE? Who knows but the only way to find out is for him to fight one. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,196 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 I have to admit, that I thought the idea of BIG government was dead and that anyone in their right mind would see it's a crock but over 15 million people proved me wrong at the referendum so it shows how much I know ! Lol None of those people think the way I do, they obviously have no qualms about a diluted society with no identity, they don't care that they work mostly for the state.......so maybe there is hope for a Corbyn style Labour Party yet my friend. You only have to look at the huge amounts of supporters he's brought into the Labour party and got engaged at a grassroots level to see his message resonates with at least some of the electorate. Does it resonate with enough folk to win a GE? Who knows but the only way to find out is for him to fight one. Yep I agree, at least once exit is complete the people really will have a clear and proper choice again mate. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blackbriar 8,568 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) well I did somethin, after the failed coup I was so disgusted by the Blairite b*****ds, I joined Labour [at pensioner rate] just to vote for Corbyn. Then after last nights stitch up on the vote, I've just now joined UNITE so that I still get to vote....I used to be Old Labour but left when they dumped clause4....if you cant stand up for what you believe in,,, then your nuthin........Eagle and Co. want a good slappin'....I hope they get stuffed, deselected, and on the dole the NEC have just bought the the affiliated members vote in line with the January cut - off date......looks like they've headed you off at the pass, mate ! Edited July 14, 2016 by Blackbriar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blackbriar 8,568 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. That's all very nice for him, but the fact remains that he does not hqve the support of the PLP so, in effect, he will be standing alone against Mrs May's new gang. The Trident debate is on Monday, and the man who opposes it's deployment has no support among his own MPs - all Corbyn has achieved so far is to leave us with no functioning Opposition....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) well I did somethin, after the failed coup I was so disgusted by the Blairite b*****ds, I joined Labour [at pensioner rate] just to vote for Corbyn. Then after last nights stitch up on the vote, I've just now joined UNITE so that I still get to vote....I used to be Old Labour but left when they dumped clause4....if you cant stand up for what you believe in,,, then your nuthin........Eagle and Co. want a good slappin'....I hope they get stuffed, deselected, and on the dole the NEC have just bought the the affiliated members vote in line with the January cut - off date......looks like they've never you off at the pass, mate ! Really is utterly ridiculous, if they have to fight so hard using all every dirty trick possible to stop him winning maybe they should just accept he's who the members want. The legal challenges to this bullshit are going to be interesting... North Briton if you PM your PayPal address I'll send you the £25 to become a registered supporter The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. That's all very nice for him, but the fact remains that he does not hqve the support of the PLP so, in effect, he will be standing alone against Mrs May's new gang. The Trident debate is on Monday, and the man who opposes it's deployment has no support among his own MPs - all Corbyn has achieved so far is to leave us with no functioning Opposition....... The PLP are the ones throwing their toys out of the pram over the democratic decision of the party so that's their doing not Corbyn's. They're welcome to get behind their leader and follow the wishes of the membership any time they want. Every post in the Shadow Cabinet is filled so how is he "alone against Mrs May's gang" exactly? His backbench is in revolt, not first time it's happend to a party and certainly won't be the last. Edited July 14, 2016 by BGD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blackbriar 8,568 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 well I did somethin, after the failed coup I was so disgusted by the Blairite b*****ds, I joined Labour [at pensioner rate] just to vote for Corbyn. Then after last nights stitch up on the vote, I've just now joined UNITE so that I still get to vote....I used to be Old Labour but left when they dumped clause4....if you cant stand up for what you believe in,,, then your nuthin........Eagle and Co. want a good slappin'....I hope they get stuffed, deselected, and on the dole the NEC have just bought the the affiliated members vote in line with the January cut - off date......looks like they've never you off at the pass, mate ! Really is utterly ridiculous, if they have to fight so hard using all every dirty trick possible to stop him winning maybe they should just accept he's who the members want. The legal challenges to this bullshit are going to be interesting... North Briton if you PM your PayPal address I'll send you the £25 to become a registered supporter The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. That's all very nice for him, but the fact remains that he does not hqve the support of the PLP so, in effect, he will be standing alone against Mrs May's new gang. The Trident debate is on Monday, and the man who opposes it's deployment has no support among his own MPs - all Corbyn has achieved so far is to leave us with no functioning Opposition....... The PLP are the ones throwing their toys out of the pram over the democratic decision of the party so that's their doing not Corbyn's. They're welcome to get behind their leader and follow the wishes of the membership any time they want.Every post in the Shadow Cabinet is filled so how is he "alone against Mrs May's gang" exactly? His backbench is in revolt, not first time it's happend to a party and certainly won't be the last. He just about filled the posts, after he reduced them from 31 down to 25........... Agreed there have been back bench revolts in the past, but I don't remember anything on this scale ! When this whole fiasco began, I predicted a permanent split, effectively into 2 separate versions of the Labour party - and I still stand by that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J Darcy 5,871 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. Come on BGD, you and I both know what Polls are like.......often wrong! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) well I did somethin, after the failed coup I was so disgusted by the Blairite b*****ds, I joined Labour [at pensioner rate] just to vote for Corbyn. Then after last nights stitch up on the vote, I've just now joined UNITE so that I still get to vote....I used to be Old Labour but left when they dumped clause4....if you cant stand up for what you believe in,,, then your nuthin........Eagle and Co. want a good slappin'....I hope they get stuffed, deselected, and on the dole the NEC have just bought the the affiliated members vote in line with the January cut - off date......looks like they've never you off at the pass, mate ! Really is utterly ridiculous, if they have to fight so hard using all every dirty trick possible to stop him winning maybe they should just accept he's who the members want. The legal challenges to this bullshit are going to be interesting... North Briton if you PM your PayPal address I'll send you the £25 to become a registered supporter The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. That's all very nice for him, but the fact remains that he does not hqve the support of the PLP so, in effect, he will be standing alone against Mrs May's new gang. The Trident debate is on Monday, and the man who opposes it's deployment has no support among his own MPs - all Corbyn has achieved so far is to leave us with no functioning Opposition....... The PLP are the ones throwing their toys out of the pram over the democratic decision of the party so that's their doing not Corbyn's. They're welcome to get behind their leader and follow the wishes of the membership any time they want.Every post in the Shadow Cabinet is filled so how is he "alone against Mrs May's gang" exactly? His backbench is in revolt, not first time it's happend to a party and certainly won't be the last. He just about filled the posts, after he reduced them from 31 down to 25........... Agreed there have been back bench revolts in the past, but I don't remember anything on this scale ! When this whole fiasco began, I predicted a permanent split, effectively into 2 separate versions of the Labour party - and I still stand by that. A split is pretty likely, agreed. That doesn't mean Labour under Corbyn hasn't provided an effectice oppositon though and there's no reason to believe that won't continue. Look at all the U-turns the government has been forced into making since he became leader and the fact that even Tories have been coming round to the idea and publicly stating that austerity isn't what the country needs. None of that would have happened under another Blairite clone that parroted Tory policy. Amazed that you think a Blairite Labour abstaining on Tory cuts and agreeing with their narrative somehow provides more robust opposition than a Labour party that actually offers an alternative TBH The latest polling data from Ipsos Mori shows a 1.5% swing to Labour over the last month. Not bad considering all the shite stirred up by the PLP. Come on BGD, you and I both know what Polls are like.......often wrong! Agreed but they're the only data we've got to judge voting intention by. You can bet if the poll numbers were the other way round it would be used to attack Corbyn... Edited July 14, 2016 by BGD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J Darcy 5,871 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 If May can look strong in the coming months and UKIP get a popular, charismatic leader that can communicate with the working man then I think Labour will be up $hit creak for a long, long time. I really think people are today getting sick of 'words' and want 'action' and the party that delivers action will come to the fore, whoever it may be. BGD I do admire your enthusiasm for Corbyn, but being realistic do you really think he has a chance at becoming a Prime Minister? In all honesty? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 If May can look strong in the coming months and UKIP get a popular, charismatic leader that can communicate with the working man then I think Labour will be up $hit creak for a long, long time. I really think people are today getting sick of 'words' and want 'action' and the party that delivers action will come to the fore, whoever it may be. BGD I do admire your enthusiasm for Corbyn, but being realistic do you really think he has a chance at becoming a Prime Minister? In all honesty? I think he's got more chance than the shower of shite in the PLP Honestly though my and others support for Corbyn isn't just about him leading us to some great socialist victory in a GE, it's about changing the internal workings of the party making it more democratic giving power back to the members and trying to undo the damage done by Kinnock, Blair and Brown. He can then lay the ground work for a younger more dynamic leftist leader to take over from him and who knows where they will lead the party. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nicepix 5,650 Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 If May can look strong in the coming months and UKIP get a popular, charismatic leader that can communicate with the working man then I think Labour will be up $hit creak for a long, long time. I really think people are today getting sick of 'words' and want 'action' and the party that delivers action will come to the fore, whoever it may be. BGD I do admire your enthusiasm for Corbyn, but being realistic do you really think he has a chance at becoming a Prime Minister? In all honesty? I think he's got more chance than the shower of shite in the PLP Honestly though my and others support for Corbyn isn't just about him leading us to some great socialist victory in a GE, it's about changing the internal workings of the party making it more democratic giving power back to the members and trying to undo the damage done by Kinnock, Blair and Brown. He can then lay the ground work for a younger more dynamic leftist leader to take over from him and who knows where they will lead the party. Oblivion springs to mind 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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