DIDO.1 20,851 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 if people want to brand them like hero's that's up to them......i can't see anything manly about sticking half a dozen spears into an animal and letting it suffer until it can't move any more... i don't see the point of it, if your going to kill something......do it quick and humanly, But that isn't what they do. Bull comes in untouched and meets a man who only has a cape. Nothing else. He turns it a few times. Then the Picador comes in on a protected horse. The bull is brought before the horse. If it doesn't charge the horse, doesn't keep it's charge going while it's hit into the hump of it's neck with a pick . Then it's taken out and it's all over. If the bull doesn't want to attack at this stage it's out, done, over , finito. That happened with 3 bulls in a row in Madrid a few weeks ago. If the bull goes lame, it's out, done finished. Then there's 3 bandeleros, they run to the bull with no protection and drop in a pair each. Again If the bull doesn't want to attack at this stage it's out, done, over , finito. Now the last bit, one man with a cape, he's meant to show all the strengths of the bull keeping it as close as possible, if a bull is faultless then it goes free form the areana, (there's maybe a dozen a year or so) If not then the end comes, bullfighter has only a sword, he must go in over the horns and let them pass under his body as he kills, he must allow himself to be killed as he kills. The largest artery and veins, Aorta and Vena cava are cuts and the bull dies. A bit like Halal in the UK or Ireland I guess? I went once years ago to watch the big star of the time, the Spanish called him the fifth Beatle El Cordobes the man in the horse appeared to me to be staying into the front leg muscles which is bound to slow it down, the horse is padded, but one bull managed to gore one of the horses in the stomach I heard they use old horses. As you can read, I was not impressed what ever way you think for the bull it's torture and the horses don't like it neither I didn't see the first sword killing it goes in at the neck with only the handle showing, it stopped the bull's I saw dead, they then just stood there tongue hanging at the side, the matador then has another sword like a spike at the end anhits the bull in the brain and it instantly drops. The pic is in to the large hump of muscle on the neck. Its rare for a horse to be hurt anymore, its part of the corrida that has most room for improvement still. The horses are no longer old worthless mounts and the act of the pic is again hopefully becoming more skill ful. The sword goes between the shoulder blades as that is the one spot that the bull can defend, the man having to go over and within range of the horn to place it. By law one passage over the horn must take place. The other sword is the descabello which cuts the spinal marrow. I dont think cordorbes was ever a good killer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tillylamp 1,809 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 I've also never seen a bullfight so, I won't judge. I do agree with cultures keeping their traditions. It would make one hell of a barbecue afterwards But, those yank rodeo boys have got some serious bollocks to sit on one while the gate opens yeah..them rodeo men have got some serious balls to climb on the back of one, they are huge, i've been reading about them, the bulls have a 6-10 year career, after that they get retired, also with breeding programs, they are treated like athletes then put out to pasture for the rest of it's days... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bryan 1,361 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Iv not really had time to comment. Bryan is doing a half decent job of answering your questions. The bulls are nothing like hunting. The anti hunting argument is quite similar to the anti bullfighting argument argument though. Iv run bulls in spain. Iv been in the ring and trained with young fighting cows out on the ranches. If anyone has genuine questions I'll answer when I have time and if I can. I have no interest in discussing the rights and wrongs. There is alot more to bullfighting than 'stabbing a bull to death for entertainment '. It would be good if we could at least recognise that and have a chance to answer questions from people who have an interest in something that might be new to them. I hope to plan a trip to Spain next year, maybe including pamplona. I'll give some more details when iv given it more thought but if anyone had a genuine interest then they would be more than welcome to come. who knows we may even get you in the ring with some young animals. Can anyone arrange to go out to certain ranches or did you need a contact? Is there any modern reading on the subject that you'd recommend? Into the Arena is an okay read, it's as much if not more about him than bullfighting but it's a start for a modern read. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Into-Arena-World-Spanish-Bullfight-ebook/dp/B005IYT9X2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1467394303&sr=1-1&keywords=into+the+arena Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bryan 1,361 Posted July 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 A fascinating cultural passion, and I can well understand its attraction. Watching the videos, learning more these past few days with some excellent posts from Bryan and Dido.1 ...thanks guys ... I can see how the bull is revered. I still find it very hard to watch such a magnificent animal brought literally to its knees by repeated attacks before being killed. That is the problem I have with it all, not to mention the blindfolded horse getting gutted. That kind of cruelty to a completely defenceless animal could never be tolerated in any sane society, but then again, I know that, on the few occasions I've been to Spain (not the tourist part) their attitudes are very different to ours. And this has sod all to do with digging down to a rabbit the ferret has bottled up. Anyone who can find parallels is delusional. They've made big changes with the horses, with the padding now used and kelvar I've never seen a horse injured. Picadors work with the same few horses throughout the season. If a horse was stressed it would sweat up badly especially in the heat and with padding, but they don't. Racing horses will sweat up onto a frothy lather, these guys don't at all. You'll see they're ears aren't back and when the bull makes contact the horses lean in on the bull, rather than back away or bolt away. Bullfighting isn't an comfortable watch, it definitely asks questions of you. One thing I love about the whole thing is just how way out there it is. We have to struggle and try and justify hunting with a dog are ferreting and the French and Spanish are out there doing this and they just wave it off as artistic culture. Good on them. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Accip74 7,112 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Iv not really had time to comment. Bryan is doing a half decent job of answering your questions. The bulls are nothing like hunting. The anti hunting argument is quite similar to the anti bullfighting argument argument though. Iv run bulls in spain. Iv been in the ring and trained with young fighting cows out on the ranches. If anyone has genuine questions I'll answer when I have time and if I can. I have no interest in discussing the rights and wrongs. There is alot more to bullfighting than 'stabbing a bull to death for entertainment '. It would be good if we could at least recognise that and have a chance to answer questions from people who have an interest in something that might be new to them. I hope to plan a trip to Spain next year, maybe including pamplona. I'll give some more details when iv given it more thought but if anyone had a genuine interest then they would be more than welcome to come. who knows we may even get you in the ring with some young animals. Can anyone arrange to go out to certain ranches or did you need a contact? Is there any modern reading on the subject that you'd recommend? Into the Arena is an okay read, it's as much if not more about him than bullfighting but it's a start for a modern read. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Into-Arena-World-Spanish-Bullfight-ebook/dp/B005IYT9X2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1467394303&sr=1-1&keywords=into+the+arena Thanks Bryan.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Navek Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 This horse right here is impressive...http://youtu.be/fz8BiTtoLp8 Now that is impressive ! . The horsemanship is something else , the horse's ability to react to instruction in a split second must take years to perfect .. Wow ....just wow...... Funny isn't it , at the biting of this thread I said it's not realy my cup of tea but that I would go watch it ( when in Rome and all that ) however after seeing that video of the horse and the handler and the horsemanship training technics that would be the first thing I'd do the moment my feet got of the plane Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny 2 367 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Hunting is,well hunting.Bullfighting is,well baiting.Each to their own. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waz 4,204 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Where in France do they bullfight? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Where in France do they bullfight? http://www.esdaw.eu/bullfighting---france.html Page about bullfights in France I came across recently Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DIDO.1 20,851 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Iv just been given permission to plan a trip this time next year.....it will be my first anniversary....so it took some real negotiating!!! I'll post up details after Christmas if anyone is interested. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Letting you plan a boys trip to the bullfights on your anniversary, you've got a keeper there pal I won't ask what you had to do to get her to agree to it 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waz 4,204 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Where in France do they bullfight? http://www.esdaw.eu/bullfighting---france.html Page about bullfights in France I came across recently good work Dave, my mate lived in Ceret, visited once, he's still down that way somewhere, was a member of this forum a while back. Think im gonna invite myself down to his im sure he's kipped on my sofa more than ive kipped on his anyway 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waz 4,204 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 Whos up for it then? Anyway driving down? pitstop at mine (France) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BGD 6,385 Posted July 1, 2016 Report Share Posted July 1, 2016 I'm definitely interested, circumstances at the time depending of course Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sussex 5,776 Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 This horse right here is impressive...http://youtu.be/fz8BiTtoLp8Now that is impressive ! . The horsemanship is something else , the horse's ability to react to instruction in a split second must take years to perfect ..Wow ....just wow......Funny isn't it , at the biting of this thread I said it's not realy my cup of tea but that I would go watch it ( when in Rome and all that ) however after seeing that video of the horse and the handler and the horsemanship training technics that would be the first thing I'd do the moment my feet got of the plane Just the same , never really had any interest in it either way , went to a bullfight years ago , 35 to be précis , but not understanding any of what went on and for why it was just a day out while in Spain ..After reading this thread and gleaning some insight and a little knowledge I would definitely go again ..thanks to Dido1 and Bryan ..?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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