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maxhardcore

Hillsbrough

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Personally I have never seen the sense in prolonging the agony of things.

It seems now days there always has to be someone to "blame" when in reality some things are just tragic accidents caused by a perfect storm of events.

All this trial by media where if you say something long and loud enough it becomes generally accepted fact is bollocks in my book.......it has no place in the justice system and a jury certainly should not be allowed to give a verdict on something that has had so much media exposure for so many years.

It just can't be trusted.

How do you decide who "unlawfully killed" these poor souls?

Was it the cozzers?

The man who didn't fill in the safety form right ?

The turnstile makers?

The people who made clubs put up fences?

Was it the football club?

All the above is in the verdict so who is it?

Why not blame the fans behind pushing and find out all their names?

The fact is, it's no one !!.......it was a deeply tragic accident and folk should mourne their loved ones and move on !

All this fake sadness, slow hand clap bollocks makes me sick !

Would you just "move on" if one of your kids were killed due to the gross negligence of a company or individual?

Wilf, You didn`t answer this one.

I'd like to think I had enough about me to realise when something is just a tragic accident and not bleat on about it till the cows come home.

Anyway, what's negligent?.........is it the bloke that forgets to check something or the bloke that forgets to check that bloke?........they don't mean to not check, they just forgot.

I forget stuff all the time, so do you I expect?..........do you want the daily mail crawling up your arse every time you do ?

 

Makes me laugh really modern life, 96 poor folk die at football because of an accident and the whole football world jumps on the bandwagon.........thousands of kids get killed to keep the price of your petrol down and nobody bats an eyelid !

 

I will answer this one for Wilf the best I can, and just hope I read his reply in the way it was meant.

8 years ago I lost my son aged 20, got that phone call at 7.40 one saturday evening.

No need for the actual details of the incident, but as you can imagine especially if you are a parent it sent me to hell and back for? I don't know how long to be honest.

I wanted someone to blame, asking myself questions that would never be answered, why this why that why me, you name it I asked it and went through it.

But back to the point, one day from somebody I never expected it from said to me " Del if you get the answers will it make you feel any better?"

in a word no it would not have made the slightest difference to me, but I realised one thing I had to move on for myself and for my family and friends alike.

 

Hope I have not offended anybody affected by that fateful day, but this is just me and my previous situation and maybe seeing what Wilf meant. But when the questions were asked it should never have taken 28 years for an answer.

 

ATB… Del

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I don't think WILF meant to be insensitive or disrespectful with his comments.

 

He put forward a point of view, one which for me personally with absolutely no knowledge of the event other than something terrible happened seemed to be a reasoned argument and he has some valid points.

 

Reading the thread it appears that he may be mistaken on some points and... So may I have been in my opinions when listening or watching the coverage and hearing the verdict on the news.

 

Obviously an extremely emotional subject but it does make me wonder what is the next step...

 

What is the most important thing to focus on?

 

The mistakes made on that day?

 

It seems to me in my ignorance that here was definitely some sort of cover up by the police, or rather members of the police force ath the time and in the years after the disaster.

 

If anything is to be taken from the case I would suggest that it is the corruption inherent in the police force...

 

I can see parallels between this and operation Yew tree.

 

What is a fair sentence for those that are supposedly to blame?

 

And do we charge those who were responsible for the accident? Arguably I would suggest that they are less guilty than those involved with the cover up.

 

Now that a verdict has been reached what positives can come from the deaths of these 96 people?

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Personally I have never seen the sense in prolonging the agony of things.

It seems now days there always has to be someone to "blame" when in reality some things are just tragic accidents caused by a perfect storm of events.

All this trial by media where if you say something long and loud enough it becomes generally accepted fact is bollocks in my book.......it has no place in the justice system and a jury certainly should not be allowed to give a verdict on something that has had so much media exposure for so many years.

It just can't be trusted.

How do you decide who "unlawfully killed" these poor souls?

Was it the cozzers?

The man who didn't fill in the safety form right ?

The turnstile makers?

The people who made clubs put up fences?

Was it the football club?

All the above is in the verdict so who is it?

Why not blame the fans behind pushing and find out all their names?

The fact is, it's no one !!.......it was a deeply tragic accident and folk should mourne their loved ones and move on !

All this fake sadness, slow hand clap bollocks makes me sick !

Would you just "move on" if one of your kids were killed due to the gross negligence of a company or individual?

Wilf, You didn`t answer this one.

I'd like to think I had enough about me to realise when something is just a tragic accident and not bleat on about it till the cows come home.

Anyway, what's negligent?.........is it the bloke that forgets to check something or the bloke that forgets to check that bloke?........they don't mean to not check, they just forgot.

I forget stuff all the time, so do you I expect?..........do you want the daily mail crawling up your arse every time you do ?

 

Makes me laugh really modern life, 96 poor folk die at football because of an accident and the whole football world jumps on the bandwagon.........thousands of kids get killed to keep the price of your petrol down and nobody bats an eyelid !

 

I will answer this one for Wilf the best I can, and just hope I read his reply in the way it was meant.

8 years ago I lost my son aged 20, got that phone call at 7.40 one saturday evening.

No need for the actual details of the incident, but as you can imagine especially if you are a parent it sent me to hell and back for? I don't know how long to be honest.

I wanted someone to blame, asking myself questions that would never be answered, why this why that why me, you name it I asked it and went through it.

But back to the point, one day from somebody I never expected it from said to me " Del if you get the answers will it make you feel any better?"

in a word no it would not have made the slightest difference to me, but I realised one thing I had to move on for myself and for my family and friends alike.

 

Hope I have not offended anybody affected by that fateful day, but this is just me and my previous situation and maybe seeing what Wilf meant. But when the questions were asked it should never have taken 28 years for an answer.

 

ATB… Del

 

 

Sorry to hear of your loss Del.

 

The issue which some people are missing is that the initial inquest ruled the 96 deaths as accidental but the 2nd inquest today with ALL the evidence ruled the deaths as unlawfull killing due to the gross negligence of the South Yorkshire Police.This new ruling is the truth which any person would want if one of their loved ones had died.

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Personally i think its a subject too crucial to scousers to risk offending them by just guessing without knowing all the facts and i would imagine very few people outside that area do know all the facts.......i have a few mates up that way ive had long chats with about it and listening to them talk about it is gut wrenching to be honest......its too important an issue to just say that time will heal it sometimes folk just need for the truth to be recognised to be able to move on i totally get that.......on a much smaller scale one of my earliest memories as a snotty nosed little kid was the Ronan Point disaster very close to where i was living.......part of a tower block just fell down killing a handful of people everybody in the area knew it was just basic slum housing and poorly built living conditions that caused it but the council wouldnt have it and blamed it on a gas explosion !......we didnt have the weight of sport or the media in the area and it got brushed under the carpet so i can completely understand Liverpool as an area wanting justice and using whatever means necessary to get it.....nobody is robotic some people can move on without answers others cant so anything that can be done to help those that cant im all for it however long it takes.

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This is obviously a very Touchy Subject , I'm baffled as I have always believed that there was crushing at the gate at the Leppings lane end (I'm 99% sure I seen a documentary on Hillsboro which showed this) Now if this happened & people where actually being crushed and had died at that closed gate how would people of reacted ?? I'm sure I personally would off blamed the police for not opening that gate , not realising by opening that gate what would it off created , which is actually what happened !! I've total respect & sadness for those who lost people that day an absolute Horrific outcome , but as for any individuals actually being prosecuted I'm not sure that can / will happen ??

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I agree Gnasher, it's too much of a sensitive subject to have an open debate.

 

Edit: lanesra - There was a crushing at the gate, people were passing out being crushed at the turnstiles.

 

I guess some topics are just left where they are :thumbs:

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I don't think WILF meant to be insensitive or disrespectful with his comments.

 

He put forward a point of view, one which for me personally with absolutely no knowledge of the event other than something terrible happened seemed to be a reasoned argument and he has some valid points.

 

Reading the thread it appears that he may be mistaken on some points and... So may I have been in my opinions when listening or watching the coverage and hearing the verdict on the news.

 

Obviously an extremely emotional subject but it does make me wonder what is the next step...

 

What is the most important thing to focus on?

 

The mistakes made on that day?

 

It seems to me in my ignorance that here was definitely some sort of cover up by the police, or rather members of the police force ath the time and in the years after the disaster.

 

If anything is to be taken from the case I would suggest that it is the corruption inherent in the police force...

 

I can see parallels between this and operation Yew tree.

 

What is a fair sentence for those that are supposedly to blame?

 

And do we charge those who were responsible for the accident? Arguably I would suggest that they are less guilty than those involved with the cover up.

 

Now that a verdict has been reached what positives can come from the deaths of these 96 people?

 

I don't think WILF meant to be insensitive or disrespectful with his comments.

 

He put forward a point of view, one which for me personally with absolutely no knowledge of the event other than something terrible happened seemed to be a reasoned argument and he has some valid points.

 

Reading the thread it appears that he may be mistaken on some points and... So may I have been in my opinions when listening or watching the coverage and hearing the verdict on the news.

 

Obviously an extremely emotional subject but it does make me wonder what is the next step...

 

What is the most important thing to focus on?

 

The mistakes made on that day?

 

It seems to me in my ignorance that here was definitely some sort of cover up by the police, or rather members of the police force ath the time and in the years after the disaster.

 

If anything is to be taken from the case I would suggest that it is the corruption inherent in the police force...

 

I can see parallels between this and operation Yew tree.

 

What is a fair sentence for those that are supposedly to blame?

 

And do we charge those who were responsible for the accident? Arguably I would suggest that they are less guilty than those involved with the cover up.

 

Now that a verdict has been reached what positives can come from the deaths of these 96 people?

Anyone proven to be involved in the cover up should have the book thrown at them and titles taken away. Especially the POLICE. They done it for 27 years. The families have had a life sentence fighting for justice, we should ALL be proud of them for fighting and proving these establishments are corrupt from the very top. Now let them c*nts suffer the concequences of their actions like any other human being would if it was down to them, wether innocent or guilty!

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Personally i think its a subject too crucial to scousers to risk offending them by just guessing without knowing all the facts and i would imagine very few people outside that area do know all the facts.......i have a few mates up that way ive had long chats with about it and listening to them talk about it is gut wrenching to be honest......its too important an issue to just say that time will heal it sometimes folk just need for the truth to be recognised to be able to move on i totally get that.......on a much smaller scale one of my earliest memories as a snotty nosed little kid was the Ronan Point disaster very close to where i was living.......part of a tower block just fell down killing a handful of people everybody in the area knew it was just basic slum housing and poorly built living conditions that caused it but the council wouldnt have it and blamed it on a gas explosion !......we didnt have the weight of sport or the media in the area and it got brushed under the carpet so i can completely understand Liverpool as an area wanting justice and using whatever means necessary to get it.....nobody is robotic some people can move on without answers others cant so anything that can be done to help those that cant im all for it however long it takes.

Finally a bit of sense!! hopefully your hero worshipper gobshite Wilf will take notice rather than repeating some of the stuff you've come out with in the past trying to score brownie points 👍

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This is obviously a very Touchy Subject , I'm baffled as I have always believed that there was crushing at the gate at the Leppings lane end (I'm 99% sure I seen a documentary on Hillsboro which showed this) Now if this happened & people where actually being crushed and had died at that closed gate how would people of reacted ?? I'm sure I personally would off blamed the police for not opening that gate , not realising by opening that gate what would it off created , which is actually what happened !! I've total respect & sadness for those who lost people that day an absolute Horrific outcome , but as for any individuals actually being prosecuted I'm not sure that can / will happen ??

Opening the gate was made according to the information to hand at the time. Duckenfield received information that is recorded on the tapes that fatalities were likely due to the crushing at the Leppings Lane gates. On that basis he chose to issue an order to open the gates. What that resulted in could have been predicted IF there had been sufficient planning and Duckenfied had been more experienced and aware of the situation and layout of the ground.

 

But if he hadn't have opened the gates there was a great likelihood of deaths at the gates. Damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

 

The enquiry only looked into what had happened. Not what could have happened. And the subsequent cover up won't help in a sympathetic understanding. If Duckenfield had come clean at the time, many reasonable people would have understood. Not likely now. It is the cover up by the police that is the issue for me. not the mistakes made at the incident.

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It's only a touchy subject when you get folk who are ignorant to the facts and telling people just to move on ect. Them families have got what they wanted and rightly so. I presume now they are trying to put a stop to anyone of us who could come up against what they did. Don't forget these families had to raise £140,000 for a barrister to get over one hurdle and them currupt c*nts didn't need a penny. So in other words if the families never coughed up then this could of just been swept under the carpet like many other things.

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I was on the Hillsborough kop at the Tottenham v wolves game 1981 as a youngster . Tottenham fans had to scale the fence as they simply couldn't all fit in the leppins lane end. Watch the YouTube vids . amazingly the filth moved the wolves fans over to one side on the kop and filled it with Tottenham lol . I was at the front of the kop and filth pushed us back to allow Tottenham access to the kop . I remember my old man telling the copper if any of them pushed me or my mate he would ring his f***ing neck lol. Unfortunately that incident wasn't enough to prevent what happened , although it should have been

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Finally a bit of sense!! hopefully your hero worshipper gobshite Wilf will take notice rather than repeating some of the stuff you've come out with in the past trying to score brownie points

 

Think thats a bit unfair chief like i say the only people whos opinions wont change are the people closest to it and thats how it should be.........the rest of us will guess/surmise/talk bollocks and probably change our mind half a dozen times upon hearing different views and opinions over time thats just the nature of emotive subjects and why they should probably be left to those it effects directly in terms of debate as its just too close to the bone...........thats just my nod on it like :thumbs:

Edited by gnasher16
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You know what should happen whatever we feel as football fans now!?? We say no more as it's so hard to agree so for the victims of that day we should say no more for their deaths! But that will never happen as we had a few things to say..

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Personally I have never seen the sense in prolonging the agony of things.

It seems now days there always has to be someone to "blame" when in reality some things are just tragic accidents caused by a perfect storm of events.

All this trial by media where if you say something long and loud enough it becomes generally accepted fact is bollocks in my book.......it has no place in the justice system and a jury certainly should not be allowed to give a verdict on something that has had so much media exposure for so many years.

It just can't be trusted.

How do you decide who "unlawfully killed" these poor souls?

Was it the cozzers?

The man who didn't fill in the safety form right ?

The turnstile makers?

The people who made clubs put up fences?

Was it the football club?

All the above is in the verdict so who is it?

Why not blame the fans behind pushing and find out all their names?

The fact is, it's no one !!.......it was a deeply tragic accident and folk should mourne their loved ones and move on !

All this fake sadness, slow hand clap bollocks makes me sick !

 

Would you just "move on" if one of your kids were killed due to the gross negligence of a company or individual?

Wilf, You didn`t answer this one.
I'd like to think I had enough about me to realise when something is just a tragic accident and not bleat on about it till the cows come home.

Anyway, what's negligent?.........is it the bloke that forgets to check something or the bloke that forgets to check that bloke?........they don't mean to not check, they just forgot.

I forget stuff all the time, so do you I expect?..........do you want the daily mail crawling up your arse every time you do ?

Makes me laugh really modern life, 96 poor folk die at football because of an accident and the whole football world jumps on the bandwagon.........thousands of kids get killed to keep the price of your petrol down and nobody bats an eyelid !

I will answer this one for Wilf the best I can, and just hope I read his reply in the way it was meant.

8 years ago I lost my son aged 20, got that phone call at 7.40 one saturday evening.

No need for the actual details of the incident, but as you can imagine especially if you are a parent it sent me to hell and back for? I don't know how long to be honest.

I wanted someone to blame, asking myself questions that would never be answered, why this why that why me, you name it I asked it and went through it.

But back to the point, one day from somebody I never expected it from said to me " Del if you get the answers will it make you feel any better?"

in a word no it would not have made the slightest difference to me, but I realised one thing I had to move on for myself and for my family and friends alike.

 

Hope I have not offended anybody affected by that fateful day, but this is just me and my previous situation and maybe seeing what Wilf meant. But when the questions were asked it should never have taken 28 years for an answer.

 

ATB Del

Del, again you have understood me perfectly..........people who have stared into the abyss of disabling grief tend to see things how they are.

If it was me, today would be a very hollow victory if indeed you were inclined to think that a victory can be taken from such a tragic event.

Still, gives people at football something to feel together about don't it !

 

Edited to add: if some people actually read the coroners comments instead of thinking it's trendy to talk about "the 96" because you watched someone kick a football once then you will see there were many, many factors and people who fell down on the job.....one of which was the cozzers.

I suppose you want them all nicked including the bloke who did the safety documentation a few years before the incident occurred ?

Edited by WILF

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