Brindle Terriers

[p3d 879]

If someone puts two Black Terriers together and get a Wolf let me know please........that would be some 'throwback'...lol. I can go back over 35 years on a particular 'Family' of APBT and I KNOW they are all APBT, as we know and think of them as. If I go back further and further to when the generations of imports were about, in the 1800's and early 1900's and beyond what would I find?.........Staff, Bulldog, Hound, some European type of Mastiff?! Man used Dogs for Jobs, not as Pets, like the modern day Man unfortunately thinks they should be!! Herding Dogs, Hunting Dogs, War Dogs and most had to do a mixture of all the Jobs. Then came in entertainment and 'sport' for fun and they started to selectively breed. Hard to believe these 'Tea Cup' things came from the same Genus as Great Danes etc....lol.

 

FECK KNOWS WHY I WENT OFF ON THIS 'TAC'!!!......LMAO. My age I expect.

 

Shamo,

 

These posts would do that to you.

Science and genetics mean very little to dreamers, Hearsay and stories rather than Photographs as evidence or Printed media that would have been checked by hunting men in their day.

Pure Patterdales...?

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

If someone puts two Black Terriers together and get a Wolf let me know please........that would be some 'throwback'...lol. I can go back over 35 years on a particular 'Family' of APBT and I KNOW they are all APBT, as we know and think of them as. If I go back further and further to when the generations of imports were about, in the 1800's and early 1900's and beyond what would I find?.........Staff, Bulldog, Hound, some European type of Mastiff?! Man used Dogs for Jobs, not as Pets, like the modern day Man unfortunately thinks they should be!! Herding Dogs, Hunting Dogs, War Dogs and most had to do a mixture of all the Jobs. Then came in entertainment and 'sport' for fun and they started to selectively breed. Hard to believe these 'Tea Cup' things came from the same Genus as Great Danes etc....lol.

 

FECK KNOWS WHY I WENT OFF ON THIS 'TAC'!!!......LMAO. My age I expect.

 

Shamo,

 

These posts would do that to you.

Science and genetics mean very little to dreamers, Hearsay and stories rather than Photographs as evidence or Printed media that would have been checked by hunting men in their day.

Pure Patterdales...?

 

I'll presume you mean me when you say dreamers p3d ?

Don't you keep Borders ? Didn't you start keeping terriers in your 50s ?

I think I know the difference at this stage between fiction and reality.

I don't get all my facts out of books, you seem too. The working terriers of today are mostly the dogs they are because of those that keep them today.

Dreamers ? I couldn't think of a bigger dreamer than someone who thinks that the border is still a bona fide worker and can make a guess at how todays black terriers are bred.

[p3d 879]

LMAO.... its too easy.

[taz2010 1,297]

 

the old fell dog,patterdale or whatever ya want to call them were all rough haired in the 60/70s and like as already been said smooth haired was never know until mid 70s which was created with adding different blood still know lads with good fell,patts or whatever still going strong in the lakes and still keeping the old breed

 

Taz2010,

 

Have you ever heard or seen a brindle colour coming through in these Fell terriers litters?

 

never pure black dogs seen the odd chocolate in the late 70s

[Rabbit Hunter 6,608]

Surely the Patterdales we know of today were developed and created by Breay and Buck and then the likes of Brightmore, Nuttall, Gould, Stacey, Roberts etc took them to the next level and so on and so on.

I'm an obsessive reader in anything to do with terriers and the first blacks that appear consistently are with the men mentioned.

In the good terriers I've seen if you trace the pedigrees back far enough it's all black/choc Patterdales til the early 70's and then its goes back to Lakelands owned by a few men that are in Plummers Fell Terrier book.

Neil I think Buck died 1996 not 80's.

[neil cooney 10,415]

Apologies so.

[p3d 879]

Surely the Patterdales we know of today were developed and created by Breay and Buck and then the likes of Brightmore, Nuttall, Gould, Stacey, Roberts etc took them to the next level and so on and so on.

I'm an obsessive reader in anything to do with terriers and the first blacks that appear consistently are with the men mentioned.

In the good terriers I've seen if you trace the pedigrees back far enough it's all black/choc Patterdales til the early 70's and then its goes back to Lakelands owned by a few men that are in Plummers Fell Terrier book.

Neil I think Buck died 1996 not 80's.

 

Rabbit Hunter,

 

I think you have captured the truth in one post.

 

Would the black scottie type dog that Buck owned have contributed to the colour taking hold?

 

The reason I ask is John Park told me recently that he believed that dog was a factor in the change of colour to all black in the rough coated fell terrier, it became dominant over the Reds and B&T's.

I don't think there are many men alive today who have stayed true to the lines of Fell / Lakeland terrier as much as John. I had the pleasure of meeting him last summer and chatting about the old lines, a true gentleman and a wealth of knowledge on terriers.

 

It would be great to get those pedigrees on record so terriermen could know the real story of the Black dogs we know today in the field.

 

Too much mis-information being peddled by know-it-alls.

[stop.end 4,079]

I admire the black dogs always have I dug over a hell of a lot of good 1s throughout the years, what I don't admire is the romanticism behind them, and the hype, funny though the men who I know keep them call them what they are...which in theory is patts... but just black dogs to them, they know were they came from they know how they work and they have a very high success rate in matings.... and they LINE them right so breed to TYPE... just the way all the other men know how to do it. who cares an Irish water spaniel was threw in there for the chocolate gene.... ahem... by the way one of the best white terriers I have dug over has webbed feet....dose the owner really care? NO...

[jiggy 3,207]

 

 

 

 

Some excellent pics there p3d.im not clued up at all on Patterdale history.but it's posts like you've just put up that are invaluable to anyone interested in patterdales. So saying there's staff type blood in them.then obviously there's got to be certain lines out there carrying pbt blood. Which might contribute greatly to certain Patterdale lines being to hard for there own good.

King,

 

You are not alone, nobody is clued up on Patterdale history, IMO it does not exist as history should at least be older than one mans lifetime.

The men who created the smooth black terrier strain are still alive.

 

Right now what these men know as the truth is NEWS.

When they are gone, it may become history.

 

I met one of these men at a show in Ireland recently, a gent as far as I could see.

He had a van with pups for sale, no problem, if he wants to make a few pound from his dogs thats his choice.

 

But it struck me that it would be great if that man or his friends could write everything down before it is too late.

That would be writing history for terriermen in the future.

I disagree. Firstly Pierce O Conor mentions the Patterdale terrier in his book which was written in 1929.

Secondly the smooth black dogs can mostly be traced back to Frank Buck (died in the 80s) and Cyril Breays (died in the 70s) and there's photos of smooth working terrier back well before then.

Brian Nuttall gets a lot of the credit for todays Patterdales and that suits the critics because it's well known that bull was introduced into his terriers early on in their history. Same as a lot of the Smithy lines. It's no secret that bull was introduced there on and off through the years.

If lads think that all terriers have either Nuttall or Smithy in them then again ,they should do some research.

And those lines that did have bull or white terriers introduced into them many years ago mightn't have had any more outside blood introduced in many years since and that IMO makes them more pure than most so called pure breeds.

Not all history comes out of books p3d.

neil in a previous thread not that long ago you ranted on about english bull terriers been cur dogs which means mongrel and not pure,these dogs were created 100 years before patterdales with little or no outside blood infused since. Patterdales were a mixture of every type of terrier at the time including probably a great deal of border blood yet they are purebred in your eyes is that not a bit hypocritical. Purebreed is more of an insult to any type of dog in my eyes as its when they are put in that class thats where the trouble starts both in ability and looks and throw in genetic defects aswell. Edited April 13, 2016 by jiggy

[j1985 1,983]

A cur does not mean mongrel it means the dogs a coward! Not game....just looks the part.....might have a scrap but will throw the towel in when the going gets tough etc

[jiggy 3,207]

A cur does not mean mongrel it means the dogs a coward! Not game....just looks the part.....might have a scrap but will throw the towel in when the going gets tough etc

cur means mongrel or crossbreed and has been used to describe dogs that never needed or were bred to scrap or be game or throw the towel in.

[onion jonny 526]

cant be arsed to read the whole six pages but its about brindle terrier well surely the oldest brindle or there abouts is the cairn and before you all think its the same gae as the westie do your home work their are ref to it back in the 16century

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

 

 

Some excellent pics there p3d.im not clued up at all on Patterdale history.but it's posts like you've just put up that are invaluable to anyone interested in patterdales. So saying there's staff type blood in them.then obviously there's got to be certain lines out there carrying pbt blood. Which might contribute greatly to certain Patterdale lines being to hard for there own good.

King,

 

You are not alone, nobody is clued up on Patterdale history, IMO it does not exist as history should at least be older than one mans lifetime.

The men who created the smooth black terrier strain are still alive.

 

Right now what these men know as the truth is NEWS.

When they are gone, it may become history.

 

I met one of these men at a show in Ireland recently, a gent as far as I could see.

He had a van with pups for sale, no problem, if he wants to make a few pound from his dogs thats his choice.

 

But it struck me that it would be great if that man or his friends could write everything down before it is too late.

That would be writing history for terriermen in the future.

I disagree. Firstly Pierce O Conor mentions the Patterdale terrier in his book which was written in 1929.

Secondly the smooth black dogs can mostly be traced back to Frank Buck (died in the 80s) and Cyril Breays (died in the 70s) and there's photos of smooth working terrier back well before then.

Brian Nuttall gets a lot of the credit for todays Patterdales and that suits the critics because it's well known that bull was introduced into his terriers early on in their history. Same as a lot of the Smithy lines. It's no secret that bull was introduced there on and off through the years.

If lads think that all terriers have either Nuttall or Smithy in them then again ,they should do some research.

And those lines that did have bull or white terriers introduced into them many years ago mightn't have had any more outside blood introduced in many years since and that IMO makes them more pure than most so called pure breeds.

Not all history comes out of books p3d.

neil in a previous thread not that long ago you ranted on about english bull terriers been cur dogs which means mongrel and not pure,these dogs were created 100 years before patterdales with little or no outside blood infused since. Patterdales were a mixture of every type of terrier at the time including probably a great deal of border blood yet they are purebred in your eyes is that not a bit hypocritical. Purebreed is more of an insult to any type of dog in my eyes as its when they are put in that class thats where the trouble starts both in ability and looks and throw in genetic defects aswell.

 

j1985 is right. A cur is a dog that's not up to scratch.

[Ripstop 89]

I think that it all depends upon the geographical region in the world.

[j1985 1,983]

I think that it all depends upon the geographical region in the world.

Or who's right and who's wrong ?