Never Ceases To Amaze Me

[hare_n_hounds 157]

I know, plenty of others know

In that case let us in on the secret , I'm sure you could well be a phillosipher

[hare_n_hounds 157]

And by reading your signature , I totally agree...

[dillydog 8,414]

The secret is "never give clowns terriers" keep them close and treasure true working blood, if it gets into the wrong hands idiots will think it's all about luck and they'll mix all sorts of shit in there.

I hope I've been helpful

[jiggy 3,207]

Speed,strength and stamina can be inherited but courage you are born with or without and hard work ethic,determination and drive you can learn from circumstance and those around you. How many men worked their fingers to the bone with pride to do well for themselves then their kids ended up lazy cnuts because they never needed to graft because they got everything handed to them easy.

[hare_n_hounds 157]

This has got to be one of the best posts I e been involved in on Thl. It's good to see people's thoughts etc on working dogs and there abilities .

[tinytiger 822]

 

 

What a load of shite. Theres a lot higher success rate in litters of working parents from generation after generation of working dogs than there is from haphazard or just average breedings. Thats a fact and there are dozens of lads out there digging to dogs every week that will say exactly that.

I agree with RH,you might get a decent worker from as RH says a haphazard breeding but that would be a 1 off in the litter where-as with parents from generations of well bred workers of the same line you increase your chances big time and the success rate in litters is a far higher %.

a friend of mine bred a border /lakeland with a Glen of imaal x plummer /pitbull. parents must have 6 or 7 hundred digs between them. ..years of graft. .bitch was obtained in a swop with a teagle for 3 lurcher saplings and a wanker of an irish terrier -good hunter but a cut for starting fights

[tinytiger 822]

They all came out looking like lakeland

[Oldandknackered 48]

The secret is "never give clowns terriers" keep them close and treasure true working blood, if it gets into the wrong hands idiots will think it's all about luck and they'll mix all sorts of shit in there.

I hope I've been helpful

well not really, if the secret is about how to create a given stamp of animal,(ie working terrier)science says its got to be about genetics and selection of the most suitable selection of animals for breeding, and the techniques employed in trying to achieve this ie inbreeding, linebreeding , selection of outcross blood if needed etc, ( and of course while adding (apparently) unsuitable blood has the chance of adding unsuitable genes, it can also add sometimes hidden suitable ones). but as just about everyone knows, like does tend to breed like, darwin taught us that over 100 yrs ago.

however, it can be difficult to do in practice, due to the demands of the evolutionary process ie we have to have mutation and variability (otherwise we would all be very well evolved amoebas?) and this inherent variability is why we sometimes get the odd exceptional animal from chance or haphazard pairings (a case of lucky gene pairing and hybrid vigour trouncing all). so the question is how do we control the process more and force the expression of the genes we desire?

the most recognised (and relatively proven) way is to breed closely related animals together, using only animals that are expressing those qualities(genes) we desire, and identifying and selecting animals that pass on those genes the best (pre-potent). this is current recognised best practice across all areas from mice,pigeons,dogs,horses and even plants for establishing a line, but it does hold dangers.

never giving people (or clowns) root stock can only ever make sense if we are intent on either keeping the line restricted (closed) or we intend to bring hybrid pups of the animals back into the program for breeding, and we are concerned how the hybrid pups have been bred. otherwise giving/selling surplus stock, will not (and cannot) make any difference whatsoever to the progression of any line. if we do intend to bring any resultant hybrids back into the program, then its our(the breeders) responsibilty to assess their breeding suitability?, simply selling stock cannot have any effect on a responsible breeding program, unless you are irresponsible enough to breed off a pup just because its remotely your desired blood????.... in fact the act of bringing an animal back into your program thats been unsuitably bred.....well some might say that makes the breeder the clown!

the intrinsically random act of the egg and sperm fusing at the moment of conception makes luck(chaos?) an inherent component in the ways gene combine (which we can influence by inbreeding but cannot presently avoid, unless we clone) this is why in even the best bred animals, you inevitably get some unsuitable expression (shite lol). therefore the only current way to avoid this element of random fusion(luck) is cloning.

if we try to completely eradicate this random fusing by breeding ever closer the expression of unhealthy genes pairing increases and the quality of the stock decreases, usually in the form of low fertility, bad jaws etc,(tho how far is still under debate? and is dictated by the inherent dormant genes of the said animals), but can eventually lead to extinction of the line?

therefore unless darwin (and modern genetics) is wrong, luck does play a part which we can never truly eradicate ,unless we clone. breeding very tight restricts a line to the genes inherent in the line, (and they may be really good) but usually can only lead to small incremental gains (as the selected gene expression becomes more dominant), or more often just maintenance of expression. whereas adding fresh blood(a new gene package), can sometimes lead to even better gene pairing (an even more suitable animal), hence when a pairing is said to nick. unfortunately this combination is not common, however you also get a drastic reduction in the negative gene pairing, which leads to hybrid vigour. so sometimes a bit of fresh blood is the best thing that can happen for the health and vitality of a line! and lead to some exceptional animals?

lastly most professional geneticists agree that too much inbreeding is a bad long term plan, there is currently a plan to out cross the lions of the serengheti with lions from another part of africa, due to concerns of future extinction of the sub species due to the restricted amount of breeding males on the serengheti leading to harmful levels of inbreeding? which may parallel why alot of past inbred strains seem to fade? the general consensus seems to be that tight breeding can lead to relatively fast gains(fixing of traits) but carries the danger of fixing bad (unhealthy) traits in the process, unless these traits are ruthlessly identified and eliminated and this is usually a long and difficult process? so all in all, i cannot agree with your above post dd, particularly your (macho and superior?) evaluation of fellow terriermen as clowns!!! but i can see how you could feasibly maintain a somewhat restricted and closed line? but the secret to creating a working terrier.....lol...ok then, if you say so.... lol... but like everyone who posts on here , its only my opinion , and i am just trying to understanding a very complex and fascinating subject. atb.

[Mixedgrill 703]

 

The secret is "never give clowns terriers" keep them close and treasure true working blood, if it gets into the wrong hands idiots will think it's all about luck and they'll mix all sorts of shit in there.

I hope I've been helpful

 

well not really, if the secret is about how to create a given stamp of animal,(ie working terrier)science says its got to be about genetics and selection of the most suitable selection of animals for breeding, and the techniques employed in trying to achieve this ie inbreeding, linebreeding , selection of outcross blood if needed etc, ( and of course while adding (apparently) unsuitable blood has the chance of adding unsuitable genes, it can also add sometimes hidden suitable ones). but as just about everyone knows, like does tend to breed like, darwin taught us that over 100 yrs ago.

however, it can be difficult to do in practice, due to the demands of the evolutionary process ie we have to have mutation and variability (otherwise we would all be very well evolved amoebas?) and this inherent variability is why we sometimes get the odd exceptional animal from chance or haphazard pairings (a case of lucky gene pairing and hybrid vigour trouncing all). so the question is how do we control the process more and force the expression of the genes we desire?

the most recognised (and relatively proven) way is to breed closely related animals together, using only animals that are expressing those qualities(genes) we desire, and identifying and selecting animals that pass on those genes the best (pre-potent). this is current recognised best practice across all areas from mice,pigeons,dogs,horses and even plants for establishing a line, but it does hold dangers.

never giving people (or clowns) root stock can only ever make sense if we are intent on either keeping the line restricted (closed) or we intend to bring hybrid pups of the animals back into the program for breeding, and we are concerned how the hybrid pups have been bred. otherwise giving/selling surplus stock, will not (and cannot) make any difference whatsoever to the progression of any line. if we do intend to bring any resultant hybrids back into the program, then its our(the breeders) responsibilty to assess their breeding suitability?, simply selling stock cannot have any effect on a responsible breeding program, unless you are irresponsible enough to breed off a pup just because its remotely your desired blood????.... in fact the act of bringing an animal back into your program thats been unsuitably bred.....well some might say that makes the breeder the clown!

the intrinsically random act of the egg and sperm fusing at the moment of conception makes luck(chaos?) an inherent component in the ways gene combine (which we can influence by inbreeding but cannot presently avoid, unless we clone) this is why in even the best bred animals, you inevitably get some unsuitable expression (shite lol). therefore the only current way to avoid this element of random fusion(luck) is cloning.

if we try to completely eradicate this random fusing by breeding ever closer the expression of unhealthy genes pairing increases and the quality of the stock decreases, usually in the form of low fertility, bad jaws etc,(tho how far is still under debate? and is dictated by the inherent dormant genes of the said animals), but can eventually lead to extinction of the line?

therefore unless darwin (and modern genetics) is wrong, luck does play a part which we can never truly eradicate ,unless we clone. breeding very tight restricts a line to the genes inherent in the line, (and they may be really good) but usually can only lead to small incremental gains (as the selected gene expression becomes more dominant), or more often just maintenance of expression. whereas adding fresh blood(a new gene package), can sometimes lead to even better gene pairing (an even more suitable animal), hence when a pairing is said to nick. unfortunately this combination is not common, however you also get a drastic reduction in the negative gene pairing, which leads to hybrid vigour. so sometimes a bit of fresh blood is the best thing that can happen for the health and vitality of a line! and lead to some exceptional animals?

lastly most professional geneticists agree that too much inbreeding is a bad long term plan, there is currently a plan to out cross the lions of the serengheti with lions from another part of africa, due to concerns of future extinction of the sub species due to the restricted amount of breeding males on the serengheti leading to harmful levels of inbreeding? which may parallel why alot of past inbred strains seem to fade? the general consensus seems to be that tight breeding can lead to relatively fast gains(fixing of traits) but carries the danger of fixing bad (unhealthy) traits in the process, unless these traits are ruthlessly identified and eliminated and this is usually a long and difficult process? so all in all, i cannot agree with your above post dd, particularly your (macho and superior?) evaluation of fellow terriermen as clowns!!! but i can see how you could feasibly maintain a somewhat restricted and closed line? but the secret to creating a working terrier.....lol...ok then, if you say so.... lol... but like everyone who posts on here , its only my opinion , and i am just trying to understanding a very complex and fascinating subject. atb.

where did you copy and paste this from lol

[Cargol 302]

 

 

The secret is "never give clowns terriers" keep them close and treasure true working blood, if it gets into the wrong hands idiots will think it's all about luck and they'll mix all sorts of shit in there.

I hope I've been helpful

well not really, if the secret is about how to create a given stamp of animal,(ie working terrier)science says its got to be about genetics and selection of the most suitable selection of animals for breeding, and the techniques employed in trying to achieve this ie inbreeding, linebreeding , selection of outcross blood if needed etc, ( and of course while adding (apparently) unsuitable blood has the chance of adding unsuitable genes, it can also add sometimes hidden suitable ones). but as just about everyone knows, like does tend to breed like, darwin taught us that over 100 yrs ago.

however, it can be difficult to do in practice, due to the demands of the evolutionary process ie we have to have mutation and variability (otherwise we would all be very well evolved amoebas?) and this inherent variability is why we sometimes get the odd exceptional animal from chance or haphazard pairings (a case of lucky gene pairing and hybrid vigour trouncing all). so the question is how do we control the process more and force the expression of the genes we desire?

the most recognised (and relatively proven) way is to breed closely related animals together, using only animals that are expressing those qualities(genes) we desire, and identifying and selecting animals that pass on those genes the best (pre-potent). this is current recognised best practice across all areas from mice,pigeons,dogs,horses and even plants for establishing a line, but it does hold dangers.

never giving people (or clowns) root stock can only ever make sense if we are intent on either keeping the line restricted (closed) or we intend to bring hybrid pups of the animals back into the program for breeding, and we are concerned how the hybrid pups have been bred. otherwise giving/selling surplus stock, will not (and cannot) make any difference whatsoever to the progression of any line. if we do intend to bring any resultant hybrids back into the program, then its our(the breeders) responsibilty to assess their breeding suitability?, simply selling stock cannot have any effect on a responsible breeding program, unless you are irresponsible enough to breed off a pup just because its remotely your desired blood????.... in fact the act of bringing an animal back into your program thats been unsuitably bred.....well some might say that makes the breeder the clown!

the intrinsically random act of the egg and sperm fusing at the moment of conception makes luck(chaos?) an inherent component in the ways gene combine (which we can influence by inbreeding but cannot presently avoid, unless we clone) this is why in even the best bred animals, you inevitably get some unsuitable expression (shite lol). therefore the only current way to avoid this element of random fusion(luck) is cloning.

if we try to completely eradicate this random fusing by breeding ever closer the expression of unhealthy genes pairing increases and the quality of the stock decreases, usually in the form of low fertility, bad jaws etc,(tho how far is still under debate? and is dictated by the inherent dormant genes of the said animals), but can eventually lead to extinction of the line?

therefore unless darwin (and modern genetics) is wrong, luck does play a part which we can never truly eradicate ,unless we clone. breeding very tight restricts a line to the genes inherent in the line, (and they may be really good) but usually can only lead to small incremental gains (as the selected gene expression becomes more dominant), or more often just maintenance of expression. whereas adding fresh blood(a new gene package), can sometimes lead to even better gene pairing (an even more suitable animal), hence when a pairing is said to nick. unfortunately this combination is not common, however you also get a drastic reduction in the negative gene pairing, which leads to hybrid vigour. so sometimes a bit of fresh blood is the best thing that can happen for the health and vitality of a line! and lead to some exceptional animals?

lastly most professional geneticists agree that too much inbreeding is a bad long term plan, there is currently a plan to out cross the lions of the serengheti with lions from another part of africa, due to concerns of future extinction of the sub species due to the restricted amount of breeding males on the serengheti leading to harmful levels of inbreeding? which may parallel why alot of past inbred strains seem to fade? the general consensus seems to be that tight breeding can lead to relatively fast gains(fixing of traits) but carries the danger of fixing bad (unhealthy) traits in the process, unless these traits are ruthlessly identified and eliminated and this is usually a long and difficult process? so all in all, i cannot agree with your above post dd, particularly your (macho and superior?) evaluation of fellow terriermen as clowns!!! but i can see how you could feasibly maintain a somewhat restricted and closed line? but the secret to creating a working terrier.....lol...ok then, if you say so.... lol... but like everyone who posts on here , its only my opinion , and i am just trying to understanding a very complex and fascinating subject. atb.

 

Far to many brackets and shit for me to read that lot. Lol

[dillydog 8,414]

I got bored and cut to the chase at the end, it's not macho, it's an honest opinion. I never said I'm doing it on my own, half the people I know have pissed down my back and told me it was raining at one time or other but I value their experience and the blood they hold in their garden. Without good friends and associates I couldn't breed what I keep in my yard. It's no good quoting a load of rubbish to make yourself sound clever, I have a yard of workers and have provided plenty to others, your welcome to see them in the flesh.

[jiggy 3,207]

It would be interesting to clone a top class terrier and have 2 pups of the same sex with identical genes give one to an experienced terrier man to rear,enter and test in whatever way he sees fit then give or sell ha,ha the other to a clown who hasn't a clue and then compare the two terriers at 4 year old, I know which one I'd be putting my money on making the grade clone or not.

[crazydave 185]

Like dilly dog says he and a lot of uther lads have yards with a high percentage of worker we have to give credit where it's due it's not all luck is it they must be doing some thing right. I hope so anyways because I am 1 unlucky f###er

[staffs riffraff 1,068]

This is the reason why people struggle to get good dogs I could of bought ten pups off OK stock but I a soft cut when it comes to dogs so want to up the odds of getting a proper terrier by sourcing one from a proven line cuz I don't want to end up with a pet so will go without if I have to as the first thing I ask about pups is how far back do you know it's breeding

[tinytiger 822]

even with inbreeding there's around 58 billion different possible combinations of chromosomes there's a pride of lions in the serengeti that always keep it in the family and aren't related to any of the other prides there.