Dominant Pup

[jwalshe 14]

So your tellin me that if 2 good terriers are bread then every pup in the litter should turn out as good as the mother an father... that just doesnt happen maybe most but not all.

[hjckcff 1,737]

you have to go with your gut. I like a strong cocky pup. and allways tend to go with a dominant pup. they don't ail as much as the weaker pups in later years. this I think is due to the fact that they get the best of everything from day one. the downside to the way I pick a pup is they can end up the strongest and on the big side compared to the rest of the litter. as for the thought that every pup in a litter should work. Ithink that is fancyfull. and luck I feel has a big part to play in even very well bred litters

[morton 5,367]

So your tellin me that if 2 good terriers are bread then every pup in the litter should turn out as good as the mother an father... that just doesnt happen maybe most but not all.

All im saying is this,if i wanted a grafting terrier id be reluctant to visit a litter bred by somebody i did not know,i know for a fact that i could ask a mucker for a pup and it would work.Id not want a pup bred from a litter where i knew the parents grafted,id want one where i knew the working lineage was carried through many generations,uninterrupted by greed and ego,s.

[dublin dezzy 1,023]

Morton to say luck is not involved in any litter is silly talk,from a long line of workers the percentage of workers is obviously higher but to say all pups go on to lead a working life below is again silly talk agreed the long lineage of workerrs/ producers the level of pups that make the grade below would be higher than first time unbreed from unknowns the progency is a great benefit when breeding but a scatter breed unknown who produces is just as good,in both luck is involved

[morton 5,367]

Morton to say luck is not involved in any litter is silly talk,from a long line of workers the percentage of workers is obviously higher but to say all pups go on to lead a working life below is again silly talk agreed the long lineage of workerrs/ producers the level of pups that make the grade below would be higher than first time unbreed from unknowns the progency is a great benefit when breeding but a scatter breed unknown who produces is just as good,in both luck is involved

I don,t understand the" luck factor" in breeding,never have and hopefully never will,luck plays and played no part in any working dog breeding,its a get out clause for a lack of belief in what you have bred,IMO.

[marshman 7,756]

 

 

Morton to say luck is not involved in any litter is silly talk,from a long line of workers the percentage of workers is obviously higher but to say all pups go on to lead a working life below is again silly talk agreed the long lineage of workerrs/ producers the level of pups that make the grade below would be higher than first time unbreed from unknowns the progency is a great benefit when breeding but a scatter breed unknown who produces is just as good,in both luck is involved

I don,t understand the" luck factor" in breeding,never have and hopefully never will,luck plays and played no part in any working dog breeding,its a get out clause for a lack of belief in what you have bred,IMO.

agree to a certain point Morton , you must've bred a lot of 100 % litters then if no luck was involved and it's all down to breeding ? Edited to add we are talking earth dogs here not bushing dogs ain't we ? Edited August 2, 2015 by marshman

[morton 5,367]

 

 

Morton to say luck is not involved in any litter is silly talk,from a long line of workers the percentage of workers is obviously higher but to say all pups go on to lead a working life below is again silly talk agreed the long lineage of workerrs/ producers the level of pups that make the grade below would be higher than first time unbreed from unknowns the progency is a great benefit when breeding but a scatter breed unknown who produces is just as good,in both luck is involved

I don,t understand the" luck factor" in breeding,never have and hopefully never will,luck plays and played no part in any working dog breeding,its a get out clause for a lack of belief in what you have bred,IMO.

agree to a certain point Morton , you must've bred a lot of 100 % litters then if no luck was involved and it's all down to breeding ? Edited to add we are talking earth dogs here not bushing dogs ain't we ?

 

All my bushers i expect to work below,id not feed or kennel anything less,ive possibly bred 6 litters of terriers in 30 years,if im to be honest i can hold my hand up and say many of them grafted to the potential they were bred for,some ended up in kennels that did not aid their cause and some did not have the brains to be bushers and i got rid or culled them,its harder to produce a steady busher than it is to produce an earth worker,my terriers are not suited to the "digging lads",they would not own one,neither would i own a digging type terrier as we know them now.Im not saying i breed the ultimate terrier,just terriers that are suited to my hunting lifestyle and commitment,i set my standards low perhaps?.

[marshman 7,756]

 

 

 

 

Morton to say luck is not involved in any litter is silly talk,from a long line of workers the percentage of workers is obviously higher but to say all pups go on to lead a working life below is again silly talk agreed the long lineage of workerrs/ producers the level of pups that make the grade below would be higher than first time unbreed from unknowns the progency is a great benefit when breeding but a scatter breed unknown who produces is just as good,in both luck is involved

I don,t understand the" luck factor" in breeding,never have and hopefully never will,luck plays and played no part in any working dog breeding,its a get out clause for a lack of belief in what you have bred,IMO.

agree to a certain point Morton , you must've bred a lot of 100 % litters then if no luck was involved and it's all down to breeding ? Edited to add we are talking earth dogs here not bushing dogs ain't we ?

All my bushers i expect to work below,id not feed or kennel anything less,ive possibly bred 6 litters of terriers in 30 years,if im to be honest i can hold my hand up and say many of them grafted to the potential they were bred for,some ended up in kennels that did not aid their cause and some did not have the brains to be bushers and i got rid or culled them,its harder to produce a steady busher than it is to produce an earth worker,my terriers are not suited to the "digging lads",they would not own one,neither would i own a digging type terrier as we know them now.Im not saying i breed the ultimate terrier,just terriers that are suited to my hunting lifestyle and commitment,i set my standards low perhaps?.

Fair play mate I think we maybe at cross purposes. I disagree on a couple of points but I think I get where your coming from now . Same meat different gravy so to speak !

[foxdropper 17,092]

Luck only comes into being lucky enough to know what you are doing .Lucky that two well bred dogs tied ,something that avoided me this summer .What eludes most on here is ,i think ,breeding for the future instead of the here and now .Its been done to death so cant be assed to explain but luck has no part in stockmanship.Ime ,pups behave totally different when seperated from siblings .Id never choose a week pup but not refuse a bully either .Its knowing how to get the best from anything that matters which comes from confidence in what youve bred and time served .

[marshman 7,756]

Luck only comes into being lucky enough to know what you are doing .Lucky that two well bred dogs tied ,something that avoided me this summer .What eludes most on here is ,i think ,breeding for the future instead of the here and now .Its been done to death so cant be assed to explain but luck has no part in stockmanship.Ime ,pups behave totally different when seperated from siblings .Id never choose a week pup but not refuse a bully either .Its knowing how to get the best from anything that matters which comes from confidence in what youve bred and time served .

foxdropper I understand about breeding and not talking scatter bred breeding where luck does come into it in a big way . I understand that if your breeding correct your cutting down the chances of culls but luck still does come into the equation even out if proper bred dogs. So if luck doesn't come into it let me ask you the same question I ask Morton ( beings as your an out an out digging man and probably expect the same from yours as I expect from mine ) . So of all the litters that you ever breed is every pup a 100 % grafters , have you never bred a cull ? Edited August 3, 2015 by marshman

[Bosun11 537]

Totally see and agree with Morton & FD, luck should play no part, no self respecting breeder should think it does. You breed to succeed, you breed with the expectation of all and if a pup falls short then that is simply unfortunate, for whatever reason, not that you were unlucky and then you re-evaluate for next time. No luck involved, only logic...

[jeemes 3,517]

Too much shyness and timidity is tolerated in all breeds imo. Its very possible to have a timid dog that is good at its job,and thats how the problem starts and gets bred into strains. A lot of faults are overlooked and ignored when a dog is a winner at its particular work,and then bred from. Timidity is a bad fault and causes bad vibes in kennel. Its a fault that gets more intense as its bred into a strain.

Aswell as terriers it is now a problem in a lot of Bull blood and has been a problem for a long time in Greyhounds. Im not talking about quiet and steady but timid and nervy. Im not saying bullied pups are necessarily timid,because some of the bullies are only confident whilst amongst there litter mates and loose it all when they have to leave it..Unfortunately its one of the many faults that do not show until later. They may work well but beware breeding in other faults along the way that that will kick you in the arse later.

[marshman 7,756]

Totally see and agree with Morton & FD, luck should play no part, no self respecting breeder should think it does. You breed to succeed, you breed with the expectation of all and if a pup falls short then that is simply unfortunate, for whatever reason, not that you were unlucky and then you re-evaluate for next time. No luck involved, only logic...

without going into detail and splitting hairs about what is the difference between unlucky and as you said unfortunate ( basically they mean the same thing mate). Any man that breeds of course breed for success but the reality of breeding is that they all don't make the grade. And any man that does breed litters with a 100% success rate is a lucky man ... or sorry fortunate man ? Edited August 3, 2015 by marshman

[hjckcff 1,737]

luck does play a part in working dogs. imo. how the genes gel is not totally understood and cant be controlled. so luck plays a part. when entering you can be carefull but once they go below ground there is luck involved. if you run them on top they could get cought up in an old snare. ...unlucky... young prospect killed in a cave in...unlucky... top quality dog turns out infertile..unlucky. average bred dog turns out a cracking worker. lucky. ..you get a pup from the dog further down the line... not being told the truth about the breeding...unlucky.. trusting a good mate that isn't just as honest as you thought.. unlucky. bored now.

[lukey 1,620]

Good post CS??