Lost Skills?

[foxdropper 17,092]

The best terrier men will get the most from a situation with or without the finder .The old Deben was far from failsafe and sometimes got damp leaving a dog to be found the old way .Electric fences sent the thing into a buzzing frenzy but dogs were still found .Buried cables ,overheads and metal all played a part in making it a lottery but still dogs were found .Todays technolgy allows for pin point everytime by anyone capable of reading numbers .Those that talk about multiple dogs years ago must have been unlucky with mentors as it wasnt happening everywhere far from it .Most on here arnt old enough to remember pre locator so to comment on such seems strange .The collar has allowed for deeper digs to be attempted granted and more digs to a dog through its pointpoint accuracy and can be argued it saves the dog from prolonged punishment but also made for a modern terriermen totally relient on technology .

Im not arguing the case for or against just stating that history and those gone before should not be forgotten or labelled wrong just because they didnt have what is available today .Next time your dogs to ground ,leave the box for a while and try to find it without .Some respect will be gained for those now gone if nothing else .

[neil cooney 10,415]

Your right Foxdropper about getting experience of finding before you switch your box on because some day whether you like it or not that education could save a terrier for somebody.

The old ways also included barbed wire, briars, stethoscopes and leaving your coat outside the earth for those who remember.

[the goat 642]

Thrush I think you hit the nail on the head there mate. Only work matters your pre locator days may play a part in that because il be honest I'm not very good without my box, iv tried it before it switched a box on and iv ended up a few feet out (put the box on before a spade was in the ground) for instance in a rangey deep place with not many entrances but plenty of tubes how would you go about it then because we all know how sound can travel through a tube and out an entrance, just find it very difficult. And Neil why would you leave a terrier for an hour before you start? Nothing against it mate but it's not something I do, I'm by no means dropping a hole soon as I hear the dog baying and I actually do like to listen to the dog work first for a bit...I tend to go down when I think the dog is right, I don't mean after 5 minutes of settles they always get a bit of time before the spade touches the ground, I just couldn't sit round for an hour knowing there's more dogs to be dug and more digs ahead...foxdropper your exactly right, iv tried it and I can honestly say I can't grasp It...back in the day the older generation didn't have much choice but to do it that way and obviously some were very good at it. Hats off to them...

[Waz 4,203]

It aint rocket science... lol

Edited June 12, 2015 by Columbo

[kirstysdad 827]

Love to listen to a dog work but still don't leave you without the locator but another question has to be asked about the quality of todays terrier when we are all willing to stick a hard or mute dogs into any earth before locators these dogs would not be given kennel space and I have noticed that some terriers have got very poor bays having been breed of dogs that do not use there voice this is like selective breeding and I always try and breed for voice as well as all the other quality have a bitch here who is breed from hard stuff has a very squakie bay so but a dog to here very good worker and very strong bay just my preferences and has worked fine still take the locator with us everyone but like to find dog by ear then use box for fine tuning

[Zilverhaze 1,627]

Been thinking about this since blaise thread Ied be fecked with out my locator this season I will definitely try the old fashioned way before turning.the box on

[stop.end 4,079]

terrierwork when done correctly and competently is not a skill...its knowledge of what your doing and the reason why your doing it!

[fat man 4,740]

The locator has saved the life of many the terrier.The difference of todays terriers and the terrier pre-locator is that todays dogs get a lot more digging,not because they are better terriers but because nowadays they can be dug to 2-3 times a day where as before you could spend most of a day at the 1 earth depending on its size and depth.Depth also favours the locator as now a terrier can be droped in almost anywhere but before a wide berth was given to a lot of places unless you had a 10 minute wonder or something that could be called out.Pre-locator it took a bit of know how to locate a terrier plus a lot of patience and as has been mentioned a 2nd or maybe even 3rd dig was not uncommon to get a result.Bog-peat earths i found were the worst as not a bump would you hear or feel and the sound seemed to carry all over the shop,needles to say a lot of probing and lying on the ground listening for the faintest sound.Times change and like it or not we must change with them in certain ways,the locator was a god send as far as terrier work is involved,it lowered the risk of loss of a dog big time and also increased the amount of digging that can be done with a terrier plus you wont leave the earth looking like a strainer,although even with locator some still do,lol.

[leethedog 3,071]

terrierwork when done correctly and competently is not a skill...its knowledge of what your doing and the reason why your doing it!

any thing learnt in my book is a skill eg brick laying scaffolding all skills so isn't reading an earth and understanding how your dog works a skill

[leethedog 3,071]

When I started this thread I was not really thinking of the merets of the box and collar system just was thinking as a new start how the feck did they do it because I know very well sound travels well in solids so how did they pin point dogs underground I've used a bar to locate a crying rabbit in a shallow earth and was a mile out

[neil cooney 10,415]

 

terrierwork when done correctly and competently is not a skill...its knowledge of what your doing and the reason why your doing it!

any thing learnt in my book is a skill eg brick laying scaffolding all skills so isn't reading an earth and understanding how your dog works a skill

 

You're right Lee terrierwork IS a skill, some learn it fast and some spend their whole lives without learning it.

[neil cooney 10,415]

Thrush I think you hit the nail on the head there mate. Only work matters your pre locator days may play a part in that because il be honest I'm not very good without my box, iv tried it before it switched a box on and iv ended up a few feet out (put the box on before a spade was in the ground) for instance in a rangey deep place with not many entrances but plenty of tubes how would you go about it then because we all know how sound can travel through a tube and out an entrance, just find it very difficult. And Neil why would you leave a terrier for an hour before you start? Nothing against it mate but it's not something I do, I'm by no means dropping a hole soon as I hear the dog baying and I actually do like to listen to the dog work first for a bit...I tend to go down when I think the dog is right, I don't mean after 5 minutes of settles they always get a bit of time before the spade touches the ground, I just couldn't sit round for an hour knowing there's more dogs to be dug and more digs ahead...foxdropper your exactly right, iv tried it and I can honestly say I can't grasp It...back in the day the older generation didn't have much choice but to do it that way and obviously some were very good at it. Hats off to them...

The reason in some places for waiting an hour before starting to dig is because that might be what it takes.

Not only does the terrier have to be in a spot where he'll feel confident but sometimes the quarry has to be where it wants.

The only times that I'll listen to hear what's going on under ground is with youngsters. The box wont teach you about a youngsters style, only your ears and eyes at the end of a dig will teach you that.

But when a terrier has become trustworthy and reliable I don't bother listening. I have faith in my terrier at that stage and if it's time to dig then I'm either digging to the terrier with it's quarry or I'm digging to my terrier to help it if it needs it.

Usually if a terrier is in a tight spot and is digging on you'll be able to tell by the box. That's something the old timers couldn't tell in a big spot.

[jamie2004live 163]

a think anyone who has kept digging dogs long will have had to dig dogs out without the aid of a collar, had plenty of dogs over the years "drop in" whilst out on a walk where you thought there was no holes in the area, and pretty much all of these digs were earths that i had no knowledge of, however i have been really lucky over the years that ive never had 2 drop in which could turn things dangerous and quick, also the dogs i keep are bayer mixer types, i feel sorry for anyone trying to locate a mute dog with no thumping going on i should imagine a lot of lads have lost dogs this way, when i first started as a youngin we only had knocker boxes and compared to what weve got now they really were shite a lot of the time, locating used to take forever sometimes, and there was a lot of guess work going on interfearance was a constant battle with the old grey box, a can remember entering dogs and loosing them straight away and thinking to myself "shit why did i pup them in there" and when a fox hit the net you would be counting youre lucky stars. ? the b and f was a god send to the terrier world, it acts as a safety net when working rock piles and the big spots lads new to the game probably take them for granted and dont realise how lucky they are to have them, but they were probably the best thing ever to happen to the game, but i will say any terrier man worth his salt should be able to locate a terrier without a collar other wise sooner or later they will pay the the price, if you can predict anything is that terrier work is unpredictable

[the goat 642]

 

 

Thrush I think you hit the nail on the head there mate. Only work matters your pre locator days may play a part in that because il be honest I'm not very good without my box, iv tried it before it switched a box on and iv ended up a few feet out (put the box on before a spade was in the ground) for instance in a rangey deep place with not many entrances but plenty of tubes how would you go about it then because we all know how sound can travel through a tube and out an entrance, just find it very difficult. And Neil why would you leave a terrier for an hour before you start? Nothing against it mate but it's not something I do, I'm by no means dropping a hole soon as I hear the dog baying and I actually do like to listen to the dog work first for a bit...I tend to go down when I think the dog is right, I don't mean after 5 minutes of settles they always get a bit of time before the spade touches the ground, I just couldn't sit round for an hour knowing there's more dogs to be dug and more digs ahead...foxdropper your exactly right, iv tried it and I can honestly say I can't grasp It...back in the day the older generation didn't have much choice but to do it that way and obviously some were very good at it. Hats off to them...

The reason in some places for waiting an hour before starting to dig is because that might be what it takes.

Not only does the terrier have to be in a spot where he'll feel confident but sometimes the quarry has to be where it wants.

The only times that I'll listen to hear what's going on under ground is with youngsters. The box wont teach you about a youngsters style, only your ears and eyes at the end of a dig will teach you that.

But when a terrier has become trustworthy and reliable I don't bother listening. I have faith in my terrier at that stage and if it's time to dig then I'm either digging to the terrier with it's quarry or I'm digging to my terrier to help it if it needs it.

Usually if a terrier is in a tight spot and is digging on you'll be able to tell by the box. That's something the old timers couldn't tell in a big spot.

I can kind of understand what your saying Neil, there's an earth I know that's a decent place, every time I have dug it it has ran from the edge of the wood over towards a pheasant pen next to a track easily 25 metres from any entrance and stops there at 9 foot...no way pre locator days would you find that you can't hear a thing even when you have a mark and bar down. Looking at it as I said it runs away to the far end of the earth that you would never think would exist, BUT...not once have we ever dug it there. Twice we started going down after say 15-20 minutes then get half way and the dog and fix is away over to a place where we have dug it every time 8 foot (middle of the earth) I don't know what's under there in that tube whether it's a big tube or a chamber or what but he passes a dog there every time until he goes to where we dig it every time so yes that earth would be worth waiting an hour before you dig. But I can't say i do that with every earth. Also that earth has been dug by dogs with diffe working styles and all have been decent dogs that we have dug there...different fox every time as he's killed right next to a pheasant pen so it's not as if it's the same fox each time using the same route.

[Blaise 2,253]

Fat Man's the son of Mister Bellman and Madame Flint. They created a device to improve quality of dogs.