.22Lr For Foxing ?

[Terryorr 27]

Off course there are better calibres out there for foxy, the original question was what is the .22lr like for foxing and what range will they kill at. I think people miss read the topic title sometimes

[Alsone 789]

Marginal for the average shooter is the best answer which is why it's no longer good reason in the UK.

 

Yes it will kill them quite easily if bullet placement is good. However, get it a bit off the vital target area and with only a small shock effect and 100 ft lbs of energy approx in subs at the muzzle or around 190 ft lbs with supersonics, it's all too easy to wound as the energy down range drops off.

 

Around 50 yards or so for the novice is probably a sensible range although a bit more for the experienced. However, a fox is a large target for a 100 ft lbs rimfire and it shouldn't be used at much over 50-60 yards with subs and around yards max with supersonic. I'm sure Deker might chip in here, but he is an excellent shot by all accounts. There's a big difference between a pro and an amateur's skill on such a low power cartridge.

 

Personally I wouldn't attempt a body shot against a fox with LR although I'm sure some will tell you they do and it will kill.

 

As many have said, CF is a much more humane bet. Hornet to maybe 150-200 yards and .222 upwards for 200+ yards.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of using LR against fox except at very close range. Dead is dead but it's better dead cert, than wounded. The latter does neither you or the sport any favours.

[Terryorr 27]

I agree with you 100% Alsone

[Deker 3,450]

Marginal for the average shooter is the best answer which is why it's no longer good reason in the UK.

 

Yes it will kill them quite easily if bullet placement is good. However, get it a bit off the vital target area and with only a small shock effect and 100 ft lbs of energy approx in subs at the muzzle or around 190 ft lbs with supersonics, it's all too easy to wound as the energy down range drops off.

 

Around 50 yards or so for the novice is probably a sensible range although a bit more for the experienced. However, a fox is a large target for a 100 ft lbs rimfire and it shouldn't be used at much over 50-60 yards with subs and around yards max with supersonic. I'm sure Deker might chip in here, but he is an excellent shot by all accounts. There's a big difference between a pro and an amateur's skill on such a low power cartridge.

 

 

Personally I wouldn't attempt a body shot against a fox with LR although I'm sure some will tell you they do and it will kill.

 

As many have said, CF is a much more humane bet. Hornet to maybe 150-200 yards and .222 upwards for 200+ yards.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of using LR against fox except at very close range. Dead is dead but it's better dead cert, than wounded. The latter does neither you or the sport any favours.

 

Come on Alsone, do you have a FAC yet?

 

A look at page 121 of the New Home Office Guide will show you that HMR and WMR is approved for fox, and so to is .22lr in the right circumstances.

 

Get any shot with any ammo a bit off and you will wound rather than kill, there are plenty of deer that wonder off after being shot with serious calibre rifles.

 

People always seem to talk about fox as though you are shooting them in the next county, first off fox are easy to track and train, and commonly people know exactly where they are going anyway, so can lie in close ambush and just wait. Secondly in confined/built up/small areas a rimfire is not only very capable it is safer than a centerfire, someone please explain to me why I need to use a centerfire to shoot a fox 20-50ft from me and a rimfire is no good.

 

From assorted comments/threads/polls here and on many sites the majority of fox are shot inside 100 yards, so just what is the issue for many using a rimfire in many situations?

 

You use any calibre within its capabilities, if the fox isn't close enough for a rimfire, don't use one, but if it is close please don't suggest you must use a centrefire and a rimfire isn't suitable. Don't use your inability to place the shot as a reason for needing a centerfire.

 

Blanket statements I hear all the time that rimfire is no good for fox and you need a centrefire are Bull and ill considered!!

 

Have a nice day!

 

 

[ratbuster 807]

Hear, hear, as you use to say.

 

Think you got it right Deker; circumstances and ability, and the .22 lr will do its job and very humanly !

[DeerhoundLurcherMan 997]

If I was shooting a fox at anything 0-50 yards I would sooner pick up my .22lr (if it was granted for fox) than my .223.

 

Deker what ammo do you use for foxes in peoples back gardens? Are ricochets a potential problem? And ow do you overcome the issue?

[Alsone 789]

You're right Deker it does say LR in certain circumstances ie close range, for good reason (13.25). It has been amended. It also says for the experienced only at limited range such as around buildings.

 

It also says .22 RF is generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in MOST circumstances. Screenshot of 13.25 from the manual:

 

 

If you read above, I never said that you needed a CF for fox. I said that LR was suitable for the average shooter at close range ie up to around 50 yards for the novice, yards with supersonic. I didn't mention WMR but if I had I would have said around 100 yards max.

I did say CF was more humane, which it is as the distance stretches out.

 

I've no doubt with your marksmanship you can take them at longer ranges than that with LR, but for Joe Average it would be irresponsible in my opinion.

 

As always though, it's always horses for courses. If you only ever shoot at 40-50 feet, then you don't need a .223, a LR will be fine and a great tool near houses where noise is an issue. If you shoot at 20-200 yards, then you want a CF unless you can afford 2 guns as the longer ranges make RF unsuitable.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Alsone

[Deker 3,450]

You're right Deker it does say LR in certain circumstances ie close range, for good reason (13.25). It has been amended. It also says for the experienced only at limited range such as around buildings.

 

It also says .22 RF is generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in MOST circumstances. Screenshot of 13.25 from the manual:

 

 

 

If you read above, I never said that you needed a CF for fox. I said that LR was suitable for the average shooter at close range ie up to around 50 yards for the novice, yards with supersonic. I didn't mention WMR but if I had I would have said around 100 yards max.

I did say CF was more humane, which it is as the distance stretches out.

 

I've no doubt with your marksmanship you can take them at longer ranges than that with LR, but for Joe Average it would be irresponsible in my opinion.

 

As always though, it's always horses for courses. If you only ever shoot at 40-50 feet, then you don't need a .223, a LR will be fine and a great tool near houses where noise is an issue. If you shoot at 20-200 yards, then you want a CF unless you can afford 2 guns as the longer ranges make RF unsuitable.

 

I note you have reigned in various comments from your post above, and how is the FAC coming on, do you have one yet, what FAC rifles do you own?

You are saying everything that doesn't need saying, of course a rimfire isn't suitable in every case, did I say it was, so why do so many people say you need a centerfire, is that suitable in every case, NO! A rimfire is most certainly suitable in the cases I mentioned which reflect what the guidelines say, of course it isn't suitable as the distance stretches, neither would a centrefire be suitable for deer as the distance stretches either, but you don't hear people pointing that out all the time, so why is it people have to keep pointing out a rimfire is only suitable for close fox, of course it is, but that doesn't mean you need a centrefire for fox.

 

It's very simple, you don't need a centrefire or a rimfire for foxes, you need the right tool for the situation, and for many that will be both, and several, and a shotgun as well! However, if all you do is shoot foxes in the Highlands at 250 yards plus I suspect you would find a rimfire lacking, but if you only ever shoot foxes at 20 yards near your chicken coup, between the farmhouse and stable block, then I somehow doubt you will want to reach for a centrefire.

 

Finances or inability to shoot straight are no excuse for using the wrong tool, if you can't afford as many guns as you need to do the job properly, or don't have faith in yourself to deliver the bullet accurately then don't go shooting.

 

The Home Office Guide make it clear a .22lr stops foxes and CAN be conditioned for them!

[Alsone 789]

Not totally sure I reigned anything in. I said originally I'm not a fan of LR against fox except at very close range due to the fact that's it's marginal on power and I stand by that. I personally wouldn't take a shot over 50 yards even though I don't consider myself a complete novice.

 

LR kills foxes and it has it's place, but it's not a powerful fox killer by any means. There are severe range limitations and bullet placement needs to be good as the range stretches out.

 

So far as what the OP wanted, he asked specific questions and it was said that nobody else had answered them specifically (see 1st post at the top of the page):

 

1. What is the .22lr like for fox shooting ?

 

2. What's the range like for a fox ?

 

3. What's killing power like?

 

4, What's the ammo cost (unanswered)

 

I do agree with you the best tool is the one most suited to the job.

 

However, not everybody, especially hobbyists, can afford multiple rifles so its good to be clear on limitations. eg. a .223 will drop a fox humanely at 50 yards (with a safe backstop). However, a .22 LR won't drop a fox at 150 yds without a high risk of wounding for Joe Average. So if it comes down to 1 rifle which is what the OP was asking about, then it's good to be clear on the limits as to what Joe Average would take responsible shots at.

 

As for "my FAC", irrelevent. I've been around those with rifles enough to have seen the limitations of LR 1st hand. I choose not to hold an FAC atm simply because I don't want the extra hassle that comes with it.

[Chr15j 59]

I think it's fair to say only those in a position of factual knowledge and personal experience are qualified to respond to the op!

 

Will an accurately placed .22lr humanely kill a fox out to 150 yards? Yes, that is objective fact

The real question is can the shooter place said round accurately enough to facilitate a humane fox kill at 150 yards? The answer is subjective based upon quality of shooter, quality of gun, quality of sights, and quality of ammo!

Would I, subjectively, take that shot past 75 yards? Not with my .22lr, no!

Should a novice take that shot at all? No, go do some target practice until you are no longer a novice

[Deker 3,450]

If I was shooting a fox at anything 0-50 yards I would sooner pick up my .22lr (if it was granted for fox) than my .223.

 

Deker what ammo do you use for foxes in peoples back gardens? Are ricochets a potential problem? And ow do you overcome the issue?

If I select the .22lr as the tool of choice over the HMR or WMR for a job the ammo will almost certainly be Winchester HP subs, I used to use Magtech HP subs but the price has gone daft. The reason being accuracy and terminal ballistics. These will be close range fox, and the massive HP has a good chance of opening well, creating a large wound tract and delivering all its energy if the fox presents with a body shot, head wise it works well too of course. Many will suggest the Eley is more accurate, at close range the difference isn't worth talking about for most people, and they are not any more accurate in my rifles anyway. Shot close I am not easy with their expansion on softer quarry parts either, this can lead to over penetration, a smaller wound tract and less energy transfer. When shooting any animal for Pest control you need to have a combination in your hands that will give you the best chance of stopping it safely however they present, I find that Winchester and Magtech work for me for close fox.

 

Ricochets are a potential problem on any job, any quarry and any calibre. You can never be 100% sure you have overcome this, but you can take many measures to minimise it to acceptable levels. Hence why I have to do so many risk assessments and method statements. In the instance here and using .22lr HP Subs, then shooting downward from an elevated position, hitting the quarry and using ammo that stays in the quarry will all help a lot. Using .22lr High Velocity have a negative effect on stopping power and safety generally in these situations, if I am not confident in the Subs suitability for any given job I will reach for the HMR over a High Velocity .22lr every time.

 

Perhaps we can turn that round a bit, there I am in someones back garden after a fox 30ft away with my 22-250, there is virtually no factory ammo I can use that will not go clean through that fox almost wherever I hit it, therefore leaving a bullet, or bullet fragments, exiting the fox in potentially all directions, so what is safe or good about that over a rimfire?

 

I cannot stress enough that these are generalisations that have proven to work for me from experience gained over many years, EVERY job must be considered on its own individual and unique merits!

 

Hence, calibre/energy/bullet selection is essential for every job, that's why there is such a choice available, there is no one rifle, one bullet does it all answer.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Deker

[walshie 2,804]

The new place I shoot at insist on .22lr only due to neighbouring houses and the noise at night. I don't consider it a "fox calibre" as such, but it is perfectly suitable for fox in the right circumstances. My ticket specifically states "vermin, including fox" for this calibre.

 

I only got one reynard tonight as the others stayed well out of range, but the one I did get was a nice clean kill right through the noggin. Paced it out at 60 yards, which is about as far as I'd feel happy shooting a fox with a 22lr and subs.