Plummer Terrier Outcross .cmw.

[the_stig 6,614]

 

 

i disagree that the plummer will disapear. i feel the problem is they will get more popular. with the resulting indescriminate breeding. my choice would be a russell or patt. from well bred working lines. but an slt. beggers belief. i have no litters planned and dont see myself breeding in the near future. but i have taken a real liking for the breed and it would be good to see more done to protect and improve the stock thats about. there are signs things may improve so hopefully stig is wrong on this one. there will be plummers around for a very long time to come. the standard they work to will be down to the expectations of the owners and breeders of the future. its worth bearing in mind that the percentage of terriers in most breeds that are actually worked is minute compared to the amount being bred.

don't you think the plummer was / is just a type line that was pushed into the limelight because of egos ---I know lads that have put smooth Russell over plummer bitches and the pups that come with the right markings have been passed off as plummers someone with a big enough ego could take the lakie chuck a Russell over it then a bit off westie and call it the jonesy terrier spend a few years fooking about with it hold a few breed shows with nice big rossettes -----and really that's all the plummer terrier was/is. a mix of dogs passed off to boost someones ego .

 

your correct of course but this is how most breeds start. and i reckon the plummer snowball has started rolling. helped by the new laws and a large fanbase.

 

the plummer my mate had won loads of under 12 inch Russell titles @ the jrtcgb shows in the 80s till gm got him banned

[Cleanspade 3,322]

a lot of the working russells north of the border had a strong infuence from the plummer. especially when the smaller terriers where in vogue. some cracking little workers as well. even then they could be bad fighters.

[phantomflanflinger 24]

years..There is no real breed called a plummer, they are only a Russell type really, " The best and most honest sentence ever wrote on this site " some one just rang me yo put that on. Lol

[Cleanspade 3,322]

all unregistered breeds are only a type. some registered breeds also have working variations' ie. working border TYPE. terrier. no worse for it. and often better sorts imho.

[STRANGER 948]

You cant polish a turd. Stop kidding yourselves on

No offence intended, its just my opinion, and that is it has never been a breed for men into their digging, so why try and create it into something it is not.

You get the odd 'freak' that will do something, that is no way to go on.

 

[Cleanspade 3,322]

Thats the point stranger they aint out and out digging dogs. they are versitile terriers used for pesting. ratting rabbiting shooting. and the odd fox. would an earthdog be the answer as an outcross. or would something like the jagd be more suitable. being also a jack of all trades. the nose would be kept with a jagd. i go on a plummer site and 90% of the working owners prize nose and intelligence highly. very few owners use them strictly for earthwork. allthough there are a few'. personally i would use beagle before slt.

[HGN 150]

A small 12" hunt beagle?

[Bazil brush 474]

I love this "forum" suddenly every ones an expert on plummers,I've kept and bred these dogs since 79 and can't think of anyone thats worked them fully for longer, I've seen them "morph" many times as a new sheriff came to town with his own idea on what they should be,I've bred them to every type of known Russell type, patts and crosses,all of them had one thing in common, they were worked hard to all quarry,the facts are that not enough want to fully work them, I put an idea to Scott about running a breeding programme with the PTCGB and the PTA involved, this was duly raised at the AGM's and was declared as of no interest, the clubs are a waste of time and the reason I've never joined any of them as they are too busy looking to keep their little "clics" together and although most have'nt kept them long they have no idea of what is required to produce a steady working line,far too many women that like pretty dogs, I know of lads still fully working one offs from mixed lines but nothing from a steady known line other than "Remlap" and the problems they carry are well known to us all, I am 2 generations down my own outcross and I am outcrossing again to a different dog type again, its easy to make a dog look right but getting the work ethic right whilst maintaining a pack mentality is my end goal, most would be more than happy were I am now but there is still a way to go for me, atb, WMDSC_2849.jpgI have bred a lot like these now but untill every pup in a litter is of this quality I will continue my quest, WM

have seen this little pack work myself, they are top class. True all round little terriers.

[Bazil brush 474]

I'm no plummer expert but if i had to add anything a good Russell or even better a good beagle russel bred from a good hard russel to a small hunt beagle. But what do i know lol.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bazil brush

[morton 5,367]

Sometimes while attempting to keep a type/standard of terrier viable and active,the blinkers need removing,the Bedlington is the prime example.Any outcross must be done with the breed standard in mind,otherwise its a wasted exercise,then a selective breeding regime needs undertaking to sift out any of the undesirable traits that may represent themselves in the progeny,otherwise these undesirable characteristics will enter the breeding chain,through unscrupulous kennels, later on,either be willing to cull hard,thus negating these less desirable traits,or get a Fell.Not ever owning a Plummer or having much to do with them,would,nt the preffered outcross be a line bred white bodied Russel?,a terrier with common ancestory and not far removed from the Plummer type.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

A small 12" hunt beagle?

WM Edited June 23, 2014 by wirral countryman

[p3d 879]

 

A small 12" hunt beagle?

what have you to gain by this outcross ?? look at what's missing in what you have and address that problem, WM

 

 

Can you outcross to a strain?

 

Plummer himself called them his Russell pack.

What does a Plummer terrier have that a regular Russell / hunt terrier will not do?

 

They look like solid little dogs but to say they are all rounders seems to be an excuse for terriers that do not go to ground.

Having a breed club for a strain of Russell's (with a certain colouring) smacks of Kennel Club snobbery to me.

 

I have never seen a working Plummer (not sure there are any in Ireland but could be corrected on this :-)..)

But answering the initial question to CS I would imagine a Small smooth working Russell/Hunt terrier would help.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

m

Edited June 23, 2014 by wirral countryman

[p3d 879]

P3d, your opinion of Plummer terriers is a common misconception and also somewhat biased, the main reason for a new outcross is to enlarge a small gene pool, there are also many health problems within the established Plummer clubs as each committee favours a favourite stud dog, there are Plummers that work to ground in mainland Britain and maybe HGN will know of some in Ireland but these are the exception and not the rule, they do make a good allrounder if the time is taken to train them but I've had russells that can work the same, I agree with a lot of your post but would recommend you getting out with a decent one if ever the opportunity arises, you may be surprised, I've kept and fully worked most terrier types and there is no difference to ground in most, the main clubs do not mix well keeping their shows a private affair so as to avoid ridicule from established terriermen and that does come across as snobbish and elitest, in my opinion the Plummer was never fully finished and that was why I outcrossed so many times in the past, my dogs have already got the Russell you suggest many generations ago and they are the better for it, WM

 

WM,

I must admit that my knowledge of Plummers is not first hand and did not mean to be biased.

I have dug over a pedigree wire fox terrier years ago and a Border more recently.

There will always be exceptions to any breed and I am sure that every breed of terrier could have a sample that will go to ground.

But if any strain that is only 30+ years old has health problems because of dominant sires it really is in trouble IMO.

The Kennel Club took nearly 100 years to screw up nearly all of the registered breeds

and to think that a working strain of Russell's was messed up by working (show) terriermen is a disgrace IMO.

 

Would it not be better to just call them Russels and breed away from the colour?

Have a tidy smooth Russell that does the work you require.

 

Best of luck with your line.

[pablo esc 1,598]

Thought plummer, created his dog's in the nineties, or am i mistaken, or someone telling porkies