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some of the top/big yards have bred from producers that have never seen an earth ------ this is my view for what its worth if its in the blood , its in,, said it before top race horses ,greyhounds and racing pigeons have producers that have never performed if its the right bloodlines it will produce.....

. Stig your wasting your time Re inventing the wheel springs to mind
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by Raymond H. Oppenheimer     1. Remember that the animals you select for breeding today will have an impact on the breed for many years to come. Keep that thought firmly in mind when you choose b

You have come on here and have argued with some of the most respected terrierman in the UK and most likely the entire world, ?the knowledge these men have of these dogs and their history is unreal. Yo

You know what your tough guy act is getting old. So how about this. I’ll buy you a round trip ticket put you up in a good hotel near the airport. Call you an Uber to take you to a place to meet me and

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something i dont understand which would be great if someone could explain. example: bitch from a great line, works a treat. dog from another line, good at its job. both lines are tested and are built for the same job and bred through generations. what is different in lining them together, instead of keeping to their own blood? in a way, worker to worker.

That mating is bound to produce workers,but with less consistency. All you are doing with breeding in and culling is narrowing down the gene pool to the desired traits. If what you are talking about worked so well getting good terriers would be easy,but it isnt is it. So why not open your mind up a bit instead of going round in a circle. No offence intended.

 

i dont know if youve misinterpreted me but im not slating line breeding, i would hope to eventually start my own line in the future, i just want to understand it more and understand why other methods arent as successful. just a question :thumbs:

 

 

Good thread and some interesting responses. Rob284 also posed a good and interesting question above. IMHO and in agreement with Jeemes if crossing two line bred dogs but not related families is simply sensible outcrossing. Assortative Breeding with some knowledge. Not a bad option…..You would expect good results with the offspring, but consistency, and quality will be a mystery until later in life. As Forest Gump said. Life like a box of chocolates! You never will know quite what you will get! …. until you try it. I suppose you would have to ask yourself why are you going outside your own solid "proven"line? Maybe things have become too tight or a wrong turn needs to be corrected? Best way to hedge your bets with the pups and look for the phenotype for your side of the cross…… best "chance" of these pups carrying the genes you want and hopefully traits of your line as they are showing (look and act like your dogs) with the added genes (50%) of the other dog……Results in the offspring depends on how the files (genes) are stacked in the filing cabinet! By sticking to line breeding you have a better chance of knowing what you will get with better consistancy…. once you are not fooling yourself with your base stock and the tested results? kennel blindness is an awful thing.

My own question is would lads breed off of a "young" line bred dog who is doing OK, No great shakes but OK and all his litter are all doing well to a well proven bitch who is his half sister, but half an outcross. The family for a number of generations are doing well, litters are doing well but the only line bred dog available is a bit young! Bare in mind plenty of seasoned but far related dogs that could be used…….. this to me is going outside the family. What would YOU do?

 

Oh yah Elvis was a fluke…. a one off! Plenty dogs like that have been bred, but never reproduce their own like! He could hold a good tune though……..

Edited by Corkman
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Back in the day, Gamecocks were tested and tested some more, then the brother was used as a broodcock, the reason being the original cock would of lost vigour through over exertion, the lines and strains still went forward.

Thats what Ive read aswell but that was when they didnt know about the existance of genes.
. And have you had one of your terriers genetically investigated. By a genetic engineer Do you even understand the expense and what goes into idenification. Of genes , when what you really mean is selective breeding
Stick to the banter if i were you mate.
lol. Yeh. I would if i was you genetics lol get a grip tell you what post your breeding for the last 20 years Prove you have improved the working ( TRAIT.)in your terriers by your breeding programe and raised the the succes rate of your lines geneticaly DR JEEMS ,

 

Oh dear o dear, lighten up "groundtohalt" its just banter :laugh:

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Gte let the thread roll add something constructive for a change

. Oh so because i dont agree with the genetical theory i just lie down lol. Evolution and instinct make terriers work not genes genes improve or defects in the make up of the body of living creatures. Simplifying such a complicated. Subject. And its importance in living creatures. Is a bit foolish to say the least. Do genetics make homing pigeons return home no instinct does but the right genes make them fly faster , The working trait and selective breeding will help in the search For the working trait the instict to hunt is evolutionary
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Gte let the thread roll add something constructive for a change

. Oh so because i dont agree with the genetical theory i just lie down lol. Evolution and instinct make terriers work not genes genes improve or defects in the make up of the body of living creatures. Simplifying such a complicated. Subject. And its importance in living creatures. Is a bit foolish to say the least. Do genetics make homing pigeons return home no instinct does but the right genes make them fly faster , The working trait and selective breeding will help in the search For the working trait the instict to hunt is evolutionary

 

I think you will find that the Domesticated Dog has been manufactured by man through selection and therefore exploiting heredity. Mental traits awell as physical ones are manipulated through heredity and the purification of desired genes. Thats how we exploit unnatural gameness.Terriers have been made by men.They did not evolve. Wild animals that have evolved in a natural state would not survive if they were what we call "Game" for instance. When we select shape or behavior we are indirectly shaping the gene pool.

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Gte let the thread roll add something constructive for a change

 

. Oh so because i dont agree with the genetical theory i just lie down lol. Evolution and instinct make terriers work not genes genes improve or defects in the make up of the body of living creatures. Simplifying such a complicated. Subject. And its importance in living creatures. Is a bit foolish to say the least. Do genetics make homing pigeons return home no instinct does but the right genes make them fly faster , The working trait and selective breeding will help in the search For the working trait the instict to hunt is evolutionary

I think you will find that the Domesticated Dog has been manufactured by man through selection and therefore exploiting heredity. Mental traits awell as physical ones are manipulated through heredity and the purification of desired genes. Thats how we exploit unnatural gameness.Terriers have been made by men.They did not evolve. Wild animals that have evolved in a natural state would not survive if they were what we call "Game" for instance. When we select shape or behavior we are indirectly shaping the gene pool.
. You just used the word you should have used in the first place SELECTION We have not GENETICALLY CHANGED ANY thing canine THEY have EVOLVED. By SELECTIVE. BREEDING Edited by gonetoearth
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Not stirring the crap here nor do I want to get in between a love fest, just an honest question and observation? Is prey drive or working traits not part of genetic make up? inherited from parentage! Is the built-in programming of getting a homing pigeon home not inherited through a pair of the many thousand genes of a pigeon? otherwise they would get fairly lost. I am sure the mother pigeon has a good chat with the pigeon chicks in the nest as far as directions go, but getting home from somewhere they have never been takes something "built in" or a predisposition……. maybe inherited genes!!

Evolution is IMHO natures way of selectively mapping the successful traits and genes that made all animals more likely to succeed……

I suppose put another way if we all don't believe in genetic inheritance and not interested in or believe in line breeding why also breed worker to worker? We might get the same luck with a terrier/ collie cross? A terrier/ collie cross could herd a fox around a burrow into a stop end or bolt it just as well as a well planned, well thought out breeding plan, theory or whatever we all call it?

By the way I am no geneticist either just find this stuff interesting….. we all want our stock to lay the golden egg and as we have only a short time on this planet I certainly am one who wants to get results in my lifetime. God only knows it is hard to get it right……

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Not stirring the crap here nor do I want to get in between a love fest, just an honest question and observation? Is prey drive or working traits not part of genetic make up? inherited from parentage! Is the built-in programming of getting a homing pigeon home not inherited through a pair of the many thousand genes of a pigeon? otherwise they would get fairly lost. I am sure the mother pigeon has a good chat with the pigeon chicks in the nest as far as directions go, but getting home from somewhere they have never been takes something "built in" or a predisposition……. maybe inherited genes!!

Evolution is IMHO natures way of selectively mapping the successful traits and genes that made all animals more likely to succeed……

I suppose put another way if we all don't believe in genetic inheritance and not interested in or believe in line breeding why also breed worker to worker? We might get the same luck with a terrier/ collie cross? A terrier/ collie cross could herd a fox around a burrow into a stop end or bolt it just as well as a well planned, well thought out breeding plan, theory or whatever we all call it?

By the way I am no geneticist either just find this stuff interesting….. we all want our stock to lay the golden egg and as we have only a short time on this planet I certainly am one who wants to get results in my lifetime. God only knows it is hard to get it right……

 

. R. Terrier x pigeon you wont need a BnF then will you
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some of the top/big yards have bred from producers that have never seen an earth ------ this is my view for what its worth if its in the blood , its in,, said it before top race horses ,greyhounds and racing pigeons have producers that have never performed if its the right bloodlines it will produce.....

Yes so you could have a terrier dog that is DD for all the desired traits that are required in a working terrier. Without ever working this dog you could breed it to bitches and it would mask any faults they have for the first generation of pups and produce all workers. On the other hand you could have a dog that has proved its worth as a worker over and over but because its good points are supported by genes that are only DR dominant recessive then bred to the same bitches would produce far less workers..I know that is simplefying it but its easy to see how any mammal doesnt need to have done its job to produce quality if its ancestors have been tested and well bred. I think thats why clever breeders of race horses and dogs are never just convinced by an animals race record until its first progeny have begun to show results.

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I'm about to use a untested dog on my lakey bitch,was going to use her grandfather,but he has sadly met his maker,im using a dog by him,this dog was produced from a long line of workers,my bitches grandfather was put to my bitches mothers litter sister,to produce this untried dog,which is from a 4 bitch 1 dog litter,and as up to now has been the only surviving dog from past 4 litters,my bitch coming up 7,and basically haven't got time to wait,i have her son and daughter,son keen bitch a bit slow,but getting back to breeding where do I go?? a outcross?? I have looked but want size put into line again as last outcross(not mine)took away size and stamp,,so basically to keep line right and true,ive got to go to this untried dog,,dog may never get tried as last dog in long line of all bitches litters mostly so cant be lost,,,so im going to the untried dog,,

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Not stirring the crap here nor do I want to get in between a love fest, just an honest question and observation? Is prey drive or working traits not part of genetic make up? inherited from parentage! Is the built-in programming of getting a homing pigeon home not inherited through a pair of the many thousand genes of a pigeon? otherwise they would get fairly lost. I am sure the mother pigeon has a good chat with the pigeon chicks in the nest as far as directions go, but getting home from somewhere they have never been takes something "built in" or a predisposition……. maybe inherited genes!!

Evolution is IMHO natures way of selectively mapping the successful traits and genes that made all animals more likely to succeed……

I suppose put another way if we all don't believe in genetic inheritance and not interested in or believe in line breeding why also breed worker to worker? We might get the same luck with a terrier/ collie cross? A terrier/ collie cross could herd a fox around a burrow into a stop end or bolt it just as well as a well planned, well thought out breeding plan, theory or whatever we all call it?

By the way I am no geneticist either just find this stuff interesting….. we all want our stock to lay the golden egg and as we have only a short time on this planet I certainly am one who wants to get results in my lifetime. God only knows it is hard to get it right……

. R. Terrier x pigeon you wont need a BnF then will you

 

You cant really be that thick surely....

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Not stirring the crap here nor do I want to get in between a love fest, just an honest question and observation? Is prey drive or working traits not part of genetic make up? inherited from parentage! Is the built-in programming of getting a homing pigeon home not inherited through a pair of the many thousand genes of a pigeon? otherwise they would get fairly lost. I am sure the mother pigeon has a good chat with the pigeon chicks in the nest as far as directions go, but getting home from somewhere they have never been takes something "built in" or a predisposition……. maybe inherited genes!!

Evolution is IMHO natures way of selectively mapping the successful traits and genes that made all animals more likely to succeed……

I suppose put another way if we all don't believe in genetic inheritance and not interested in or believe in line breeding why also breed worker to worker? We might get the same luck with a terrier/ collie cross? A terrier/ collie cross could herd a fox around a burrow into a stop end or bolt it just as well as a well planned, well thought out breeding plan, theory or whatever we all call it?

By the way I am no geneticist either just find this stuff interesting….. we all want our stock to lay the golden egg and as we have only a short time on this planet I certainly am one who wants to get results in my lifetime. God only knows it is hard to get it right……

 

. R. Terrier x pigeon you wont need a BnF then will you

You cant really be that thick surely....
. No but your that gullible
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I'm about to use a untested dog on my lakey bitch,was going to use her grandfather,but he has sadly met his maker,im using a dog by him,this dog was produced from a long line of workers,my bitches grandfather was put to my bitches mothers litter sister,to produce this untried dog,which is from a 4 bitch 1 dog litter,and as up to now has been the only surviving dog from past 4 litters,my bitch coming up 7,and basically haven't got time to wait,i have her son and daughter,son keen bitch a bit slow,but getting back to breeding where do I go?? a outcross?? I have looked but want size put into line again as last outcross(not mine)took away size and stamp,,so basically to keep line right and true,ive got to go to this untried dog,,dog may never get tried as last dog in long line of all bitches litters mostly so cant be lost,,,so im going to the untried dog,,

. Good luck tally hope it work out bud its not rocket sience some will some wont.
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