Random Question

[Hot Meat 3,109]

Good answer hotmeat :-) if you was in the situation whuld you go for a

Unrelated outcross or use the jacker what's litter brother and sisters were bang on apart from the un culled brother. Let's say these dogs are orphans no relations to hand to rule out the obvious answers

Me personally after talking to guys that have been line breeding I'd try and source a related outcross, tho if it was a good line for me, and unrelated outcross was only thing available other than the jacker. I think I'd hedge me bets and try the outcross and whilst sourcing new blood.

[atilla the hunter 60]

And danw no is my answer to your question mate if it was unrelated worker to worker, if it was from a line of predictable workers I think you be unlucky to get 1 worker from 6 but that's a total guess from me as I not that far down the line yet just trying to pick the brains of guys with more experriance than myself ;-)

[BIG G wheton machine 1,594]

Atilla, over here in ni lines weren't always available so we just used worker to worker and there's lots of those pups from them makings doing what needs to be done, just a good honest we working dog. I'd rather worker to worker than to worker to jacker

[jeemes 3,491]

Here's something I been thinking about. While on a 20 hour road trip totaly hypothetical before I get slaughterd lol 2 litter brothers peas in a pod dog 1 is a top dog gives its all evry time out and is lost, , dog 2 dosent make the grade comes away spewes what ever u want to call it but is lucky and still alive , now u have a top bitch same way bread the better dog is gone the second dog is shite the brothers share the exactly the same blood whuld the chances of producing workers be the same from each dog being the same blood. Or what whuld the good dog have to offer that the spewer dident? what's the difference if the blood is exactly the same

If offspring is showing a bad fault (cowardice) then that fault must be contained in genes from both parents,albeit recessive it must nevertheless come from both parents. To rid a strain of that fault the best thing is to cull any pup displaying it. The chances are that the good dog also contained that fault but didnt show it because it wasnt in the duplex form (2 halves). If the good bitch is not showing that fault she probably still carries it but only as impure. You could therefore still produce good workers from the union using the failed dog to the good bitch, but pups from this mating that showed the fault must be culled.. The idea is never to mate two dogs together with the same fault. If you dont cull out the fault you will wire it in. It is a huge fault to think that siblings from the same litter have the same genes. These two dogs certainly didnt share the same genes in respect of courage or determination, but like i said the fault must originially come from both parents,and you would need to bare that in mind.To get workers from this mating you would need to keep full litters and try them all,ruthlessly culling the ones with the fault. I should think there would be quite a few.

[atilla the hunter 60]

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

[irishnut 297]

Why would you want to breed from anything but the best.

I'd never breed from anything that wasn't 100% in my eyes, thats a seasoned worker of my chosen quarry to another.

 

Is the whole idea of line breeding not to breed close, great workers. Otherwise its just welsh loving

[atilla the hunter 60]

Irish nut this is not a real situation my freind totaly hypothetical a question threw out ther to raise some different opinions of different folk

[foxdropper 17,092]

Hyperthetically speaking lol what Jeemes writes is text book, got to hand it to him but reality is another curved ball.The question is based around a linage is it not and therefore anything not working must not re-enter the breeding ,period no come backs no arguing .if you have no other dog to put it to you either look to a close line or take a chance on a complete outcross. Like Hotmeat said and i agree ,confidence plays a huge part in the way you enter a pup IMO so to have a spewer in the mix is a big set back in that respect .Theory is always in the back of my mind but commen sense would prevail .

[jeemes 3,491]

Nice advanced answer jeems whuld you use the same tecniuqe to get rid of a bad mouth? I was just thinking today about the pups futres while watching them play running different what iff senarios threw my head ime interested in the genetic side of things as I think it's a deffinate advantage to have a a bit of knoladge on it... as I don't really belive in the put the best to the best and hope for the best ied like to think thers a bit more to it than that

You can get rid of any fault by in breeding even if both of your origional stock have the fault, but you do have to cull without question,to purefy the genes. I always try to remember that genes from both parents divide and rejoin randomly to form whole genes again in the offspring. This is simplifying it but its easier to understand. If you think of a gene as being a whole thing but made up of two parts.It can be DD double dominant, DR Dominant/recessive or RR double recessive. Thats how you can breed together two dogs that both express eg, determination but neither are pure DD for that trait,they are both DR,so that when they breed, a portion of the litter will be in RR and so will express the opposite to determination. If those dogs are culled out from the breeding programme each time relatives are bred back to each other its easy to see how the strain becomes purer for the desired traits. Eventually the strain will become DD double dominant for determination. When you outcross to a dog that has not also been inbred you will then allow in lots of recessive genes again. That may not be apparant straight away because the pure inbred dog would mask the unwanted trait DR but unless the offspring were mated back to him or another pure dog and the culling began again the opposite to determination RR would be present again.

Once you understand the randomness of it it becomes clear that systems of breeding are nothing more than wishful thinking. Instead of thinking of the status of a family member ie brother,sire auntie uncle etc, we should only think in terms of traits expressed and the soundness of the animal and its fitness to breed. Brother/sister Auntie/nephew sire/daughter is irrelevant. The aim should be to purefy the desired traits and make them all DD double dominant.

[rob284 1,678]

 

 

Here's something I been thinking about. While on a 20 hour road trip totaly hypothetical before I get slaughterd lol 2 litter brothers peas in a pod dog 1 is a top dog gives its all evry time out and is lost, , dog 2 dosent make the grade comes away spewes what ever u want to call it but is lucky and still alive , now u have a top bitch same way bread the better dog is gone the second dog is shite the brothers share the exactly the same blood whuld the chances of producing workers be the same from each dog being the same blood. Or what whuld the good dog have to offer that the spewer dident? what's the difference if the blood is exactly the same

If offspring is showing a bad fault (cowardice) then that fault must be contained in genes from both parents,albeit recessive it must nevertheless come from both parents. To rid a strain of that fault the best thing is to cull any pup displaying it. The chances are that the good dog also contained that fault but didnt show it because it wasnt in the duplex form (2 halves). If the good bitch is not showing that fault she probably still carries it but only as impure. You could therefore still produce good workers from the union using the failed dog to the good bitch, but pups from this mating that showed the fault must be culled.. The idea is never to mate two dogs together with the same fault. If you dont cull out the fault you will wire it in. It is a huge fault to think that siblings from the same litter have the same genes. These two dogs certainly didnt share the same genes in respect of courage or determination, but like i said the fault must originially come from both parents,and you would need to bare that in mind.To get workers from this mating you would need to keep full litters and try them all,ruthlessly culling the ones with the fault. I should think there would be quite a few.

not necessarily, some genes arent recessive and it more than often isnt controlled by 1 gene, but 1000's. its a complete gamble which you cannot control the outcome.

[foxdropper 17,092]

Fairplay mate .I must put stickers on them so i know where i am lol.In laymans terms what hes saying is breed to whatever traits best suit you ,cull hard and keep doing it .

[jeemes 3,491]

Hyperthetically speaking lol what Jeemes writes is text book, got to hand it to him but reality is another curved ball.The question is based around a linage is it not and therefore anything not working must not re-enter the breeding ,period no come backs no arguing .if you have no other dog to put it to you either look to a close line or take a chance on a complete outcross. Like Hotmeat said and i agree ,confidence plays a huge part in the way you enter a pup IMO so to have a spewer in the mix is a big set back in that respect .Theory is always in the back of my mind but commen sense would prevail .

I agree with Hotmeat and you completely on the confidence thing. You are much more likely to forgive and wait for a dog to express its genes if you know whats behind it is inbred pure stuff rather than if you know there are jackers in its make up, but remember the theory isnt guess work and its in text books because cleverer people than us have proved things in a scientific way.

[foxdropper 17,092]

 

 

Here's something I been thinking about. While on a 20 hour road trip totaly hypothetical before I get slaughterd lol 2 litter brothers peas in a pod dog 1 is a top dog gives its all evry time out and is lost, , dog 2 dosent make the grade comes away spewes what ever u want to call it but is lucky and still alive , now u have a top bitch same way bread the better dog is gone the second dog is shite the brothers share the exactly the same blood whuld the chances of producing workers be the same from each dog being the same blood. Or what whuld the good dog have to offer that the spewer dident? what's the difference if the blood is exactly the same

If offspring is showing a bad fault (cowardice) then that fault must be contained in genes from both parents,albeit recessive it must nevertheless come from both parents. To rid a strain of that fault the best thing is to cull any pup displaying it. The chances are that the good dog also contained that fault but didnt show it because it wasnt in the duplex form (2 halves). If the good bitch is not showing that fault she probably still carries it but only as impure. You could therefore still produce good workers from the union using the failed dog to the good bitch, but pups from this mating that showed the fault must be culled.. The idea is never to mate two dogs together with the same fault. If you dont cull out the fault you will wire it in. It is a huge fault to think that siblings from the same litter have the same genes. These two dogs certainly didnt share the same genes in respect of courage or determination, but like i said the fault must originially come from both parents,and you would need to bare that in mind.To get workers from this mating you would need to keep full litters and try them all,ruthlessly culling the ones with the fault. I should think there would be quite a few.

not necessarily, some genes arent recessive and it more than often isnt controlled by 1 gene, but 1000's. its a complete gamble which you cannot control the outcome.

 

Based on what .If there were no control then why do lines exist mate .The whole issue with a line is to recreate good dogs using pattern blue prints .get the idea of of a gamble out your head ,its time and foresight that make a line not guesswork.

[jeemes 3,491]

 

 

Here's something I been thinking about. While on a 20 hour road trip totaly hypothetical before I get slaughterd lol 2 litter brothers peas in a pod dog 1 is a top dog gives its all evry time out and is lost, , dog 2 dosent make the grade comes away spewes what ever u want to call it but is lucky and still alive , now u have a top bitch same way bread the better dog is gone the second dog is shite the brothers share the exactly the same blood whuld the chances of producing workers be the same from each dog being the same blood. Or what whuld the good dog have to offer that the spewer dident? what's the difference if the blood is exactly the same

If offspring is showing a bad fault (cowardice) then that fault must be contained in genes from both parents,albeit recessive it must nevertheless come from both parents. To rid a strain of that fault the best thing is to cull any pup displaying it. The chances are that the good dog also contained that fault but didnt show it because it wasnt in the duplex form (2 halves). If the good bitch is not showing that fault she probably still carries it but only as impure. You could therefore still produce good workers from the union using the failed dog to the good bitch, but pups from this mating that showed the fault must be culled.. The idea is never to mate two dogs together with the same fault. If you dont cull out the fault you will wire it in. It is a huge fault to think that siblings from the same litter have the same genes. These two dogs certainly didnt share the same genes in respect of courage or determination, but like i said the fault must originially come from both parents,and you would need to bare that in mind.To get workers from this mating you would need to keep full litters and try them all,ruthlessly culling the ones with the fault. I should think there would be quite a few.

not necessarily, some genes arent recessive and it more than often isnt controlled by 1 gene, but 1000's. its a complete gamble which you cannot control the outcome.

 

I think thats what I just said,except about the control. We can control very precisely through inbreeding,which is how we have produced all the diffrent breeds of dog in the world all from Wolves.

[pernod 466]

Only my opinion but under no circumstances should a jacker be bred from. The only reason to breed stock should be to replace depleted stock or to try to improve existing stock in some way... to these ends a jacker brings nothing to the table. Breeding itself is a risky business. So best off to stack the odds in your favour. Again just my opinion....

 

Pernod....