Breeding Collie X Greyhounds

[greenman 221]

 

True, apologies for taking the thread of track with a daft reply.

 

I fail to see the benefit of going back to the beginning with a first generation 1st x. The hard work has been done by lurcher owners over generations, surely there are enough quality collie crosses out there with varying percentages of running dog on to produce a quality lurcher to suit most peoples needs, assuming you know the lines to go for and the people that keep them. I don't, I've never had or seen a lurcher that's nothing but collie grey working. My introduction to lurchers was a first x Alsatian grey. I happen to have a bull cross now and they seem to click with me. I imagine this argument has been done to death on here, but personally on my limited experience regardless of the cross I fail to see the benefit of starting from scratch with a first cross?

I've said the same before and been shot down.

 

I would much rather a pup from 2 working collie crosses doing what I want, regardless of percentage, than to start from scratch with unknowns.

Bizarre? Makes sense to me, if I wanted a collie to work sheep I'd breed two working collies, job done. I certainly wouldn't spend a decades breeding two collie greys and keeping the pups which threw to the collie and breeding one that way. The sheep would of died or f**ked off by the time I got my dream collie. What's the difference?

[Neal 1,787]

Hi Bird; sorry for taking so long to reply but it's the Easter holiday so I've got two under sixes to look after and a nine week old kelpie pup to house train.

 

I'll have to answer in layman's terms as that's the only way I understand it myself. I only read about it a couple of years ago in a kelpie book but then saw it explained on TV recently (it may have been on "Bang Goes The Theory" but I'm not sure). I've not read through the whole thread so apologies is somebody else has already answered this.

 

Mitochondrial DNA is contained in both the cells supplied by the parents i.e. the female egg and male sperm. However, in the case of the sperm it's contained within the tail which is dropped when it enters the egg so 100% of the mitochondrial DNA is supplied by the female. The next bit I'm not so sure about so take this with a pinch of salt...I e there are some things which are governed by this DNA so are only influenced by the female; I have a feeling that general longevity may be one of these but, as mentioned above, I'm not sure. Hope this helps.

 

Apparently, several kelpie breeders were aware of this by noting that a strong female line was needed for a kelpie stud to consistently produce good stock (whereas many breeders focus on a good male and use "any old bitch"). Then, when mitochondrial DNA was discovered they realised why their thoughts were right.

 

Apologies for any typos but my two year old daughter is sitting on my lap while I type this waving Peter Rabbit in my face.

 

Re working sheepdogs ignoring instructions: this is one of the subtle differences between border collies and kelpies. It's not that kelpies will ignore instructions but rather that they are more likely to ignore an instruction, IF THEY THINK IT'S WRONG, than a border collie. I read a good summing up of this once: When you ask a collie to do something it'll ask, "What next?" but if you ask a kelpie it'll say, "Why?" Sorry for going off track a tad.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Neal

[bird 9,594]

Hi Bird; sorry for taking so long to reply but it's the Easter holiday so I've got two under sixes to look after and a nine week old kelpie pup to house train.

 

I'll have to answer in layman's terms as that's the only way I understand it myself. I only read about it a couple of years ago in a kelpie book but then saw it explained on TV recently (it may have been on "Bang Goes The Theory" but I'm not sure). I've not read through the whole thread so apologies is somebody else has already answered this.

 

Mitochondrial DNA is contained in both the cells supplied by the parents i.e. the female egg and male sperm. However, in the case of the sperm it's contained within the tail which is dropped when it enters the egg so 100% of the mitochondrial DNA is supplied by the female. The next bit I'm not so sure about so take this with a pinch of salt...I e there are some things which are governed by this DNA so are only influenced by the female; I have a feeling that general longevity may be one of these but, as mentioned above, I'm not sure. Hope this helps.

 

Apparently, several kelpie breeders were aware of this by noting that a strong female line was needed for a kelpie stud to consistently produce good stock (whereas many breeders focus on a good male and use "any old bitch"). Then, when mitochondrial DNA was discovered they realised why their thoughts were right.

 

Apologies for any typos but my two year old daughter is sitting on my lap while I type this waving Peter Rabbit in my face.

 

Re working sheepdogs ignoring instructions: this is one of the subtle differences between border collies and kelpies. It's not that kelpies will ignore instructions but rather that they are more likely to ignore an instruction, IF THEY THINK IT'S WRONG, than a border collie. I read a good summing up of this once: When you ask a collie to do something it'll ask, "What next?" but if you ask a kelpie it'll say, "Why?" Sorry for going off track a tad.

 

 

thanks Neal, you explained it well watch out for peter rabbit tough buggers there are

[Tiercel 6,986]

I had to look up mitochondrial to see what it actually does in the body. Apparently it produces food for other cells. http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Mitochondria looking at it like that if you had a big strong muscular dog and a small scrawny bitch it would be the bitches mtDNA that the pups would inherit? So would that make the likelihood of the pups being as large and as muscular as the father less likely?

 

Another factor is that I think I read somewhere that a greyhound uses its muscles differently to other dogs and as the mtDNA makes the food for the cells in these muscles and it is only passed on through the bitch would it make sense to use the greyhound as the dam?

 

TC

["Rascal" 0]

I like the old theory of brains an stamina from the sire an speed from the dam it was less complicated

[Phil Lloyd 10,736]

Interesting data,...

 

Only a fool, chooses to ignore scientific facts and well researched information,.but...

 

It would be equally foolish,.. to ignore one's heart....

Edited July 31, 2014 by Phil Lloyd

[TOMO 24,876]

 

a suppose a fine balance of both parents his what we all desire ,but this his not often the case, breeding lurcher ta lurcher of given type will give betta results ,my take on it learned through experience . seen like pure hounds run like sheep dogs etc and seen em tother way round very rarely we get balance we all looking for .atb bunnys.

 

Yes I would agree...

 

The original thread starter, has asked the question,.but personally, I would not use a Greyhound over a Sheepdog....

I much prefer to utilise a fast type of lurcher, as opposed to a pure race track dog...

 

Mind you,..when line breeding Collie crosses,..there is often a throw back.

She waits quietly in the wings,..so ya best be ready

Amazingly enough, if you are only a hedgerow hunter and don't require a lurcher to do 'other tasks',..these blasts from the past ,often work out incredibly well, and are they talked about,.. for years to come...

 

You wouldn't think there was any grey in that Phil ,,,,looks like one of the menny,,working collie we see on our farms up north on the fells,,,real lean looking things,,,but with a look of authority and obvious agility ,,,,just the sort you would want to but back in to a lurcher line,,,,,if thats your type of runner

[Chid 6,376]

 

 

a suppose a fine balance of both parents his what we all desire ,but this his not often the case, breeding lurcher ta lurcher of given type will give betta results ,my take on it learned through experience . seen like pure hounds run like sheep dogs etc and seen em tother way round very rarely we get balance we all looking for .atb bunnys.

 

Yes I would agree...

 

The original thread starter, has asked the question,.but personally, I would not use a Greyhound over a Sheepdog....

I much prefer to utilise a fast type of lurcher, as opposed to a pure race track dog...

 

Mind you,..when line breeding Collie crosses,..there is often a throw back.

She waits quietly in the wings,..so ya best be ready

Amazingly enough, if you are only a hedgerow hunter and don't require a lurcher to do 'other tasks',..these blasts from the past ,often work out incredibly well, and are they talked about,.. for years to come...

 

You wouldn't think there was any grey in that Phil ,,,,looks like one of the menny,,working collie we see on our farms up north on the fells,,,real lean looking things,,,but with a look of authority and obvious agility ,,,,just the sort you would want to but back in to a lurcher line,,,,,if thats your type of runner

That's the type I'd like to be running never mind putting back into a line

[TOMO 24,876]

 

 

 

a suppose a fine balance of both parents his what we all desire ,but this his not often the case, breeding lurcher ta lurcher of given type will give betta results ,my take on it learned through experience . seen like pure hounds run like sheep dogs etc and seen em tother way round very rarely we get balance we all looking for .atb bunnys.

Yes I would agree... The original thread starter, has asked the question,.but personally, I would not use a Greyhound over a Sheepdog....I much prefer to utilise a fast type of lurcher, as opposed to a pure race track dog... Mind you,..when line breeding Collie crosses,..there is often a throw back.She waits quietly in the wings,..so ya best be ready Amazingly enough, if you are only a hedgerow hunter and don't require a lurcher to do 'other tasks',..these blasts from the past ,often work out incredibly well, and are they talked about,.. for years to come...

You wouldn't think there was any grey in that Phil ,,,,looks like one of the menny,,working collie we see on our farms up north on the fells,,,real lean looking things,,,but with a look of authority and obvious agility ,,,,just the sort you would want to but back in to a lurcher line,,,,,if thats your type of runner

That's the type I'd like to be running never mind putting back into a line

Running??,,,,more like walking with that type,,,,lol,,,,needs about 5 out crosses to grews ,,,,to dilute the collie enough....

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

 

 

 

a suppose a fine balance of both parents his what we all desire ,but this his not often the case, breeding lurcher ta lurcher of given type will give betta results ,my take on it learned through experience . seen like pure hounds run like sheep dogs etc and seen em tother way round very rarely we get balance we all looking for .atb bunnys.

 

Yes I would agree...

 

The original thread starter, has asked the question,.but personally, I would not use a Greyhound over a Sheepdog....

I much prefer to utilise a fast type of lurcher, as opposed to a pure race track dog...

 

Mind you,..when line breeding Collie crosses,..there is often a throw back.

She waits quietly in the wings,..so ya best be ready

Amazingly enough, if you are only a hedgerow hunter and don't require a lurcher to do 'other tasks',..these blasts from the past ,often work out incredibly well, and are they talked about,.. for years to come...

 

You wouldn't think there was any grey in that Phil ,,,,looks like one of the menny,,working collie we see on our farms up north on the fells,,,real lean looking things,,,but with a look of authority and obvious agility ,,,,just the sort you would want to but back in to a lurcher line,,,,,if thats your type of runner

That's the type I'd like to be running never mind putting back into a line

Don't you like a fast dog Chid?

[Chid 6,376]

 

 

 

 

a suppose a fine balance of both parents his what we all desire ,but this his not often the case, breeding lurcher ta lurcher of given type will give betta results ,my take on it learned through experience . seen like pure hounds run like sheep dogs etc and seen em tother way round very rarely we get balance we all looking for .atb bunnys.

 

Yes I would agree...

 

The original thread starter, has asked the question,.but personally, I would not use a Greyhound over a Sheepdog....

I much prefer to utilise a fast type of lurcher, as opposed to a pure race track dog...

 

Mind you,..when line breeding Collie crosses,..there is often a throw back.

She waits quietly in the wings,..so ya best be ready

Amazingly enough, if you are only a hedgerow hunter and don't require a lurcher to do 'other tasks',..these blasts from the past ,often work out incredibly well, and are they talked about,.. for years to come...

 

You wouldn't think there was any grey in that Phil ,,,,looks like one of the menny,,working collie we see on our farms up north on the fells,,,real lean looking things,,,but with a look of authority and obvious agility ,,,,just the sort you would want to but back in to a lurcher line,,,,,if thats your type of runner

That's the type I'd like to be running never mind putting back into a line

Don't you like a fast dog Chid?

I prefer a mutt that can take knocks lol I'd go for a heavier type lurcher x lurcher over a fast dog and tbh don't think I'd own anything with a fair bit of running dog in it , unless it was a whippet/grey I have a soft spot for them

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

 

 

 

 

 

a suppose a fine balance of both parents his what we all desire ,but this his not often the case, breeding lurcher ta lurcher of given type will give betta results ,my take on it learned through experience . seen like pure hounds run like sheep dogs etc and seen em tother way round very rarely we get balance we all looking for .atb bunnys.

 

Yes I would agree...

 

The original thread starter, has asked the question,.but personally, I would not use a Greyhound over a Sheepdog....

I much prefer to utilise a fast type of lurcher, as opposed to a pure race track dog...

 

Mind you,..when line breeding Collie crosses,..there is often a throw back.

She waits quietly in the wings,..so ya best be ready

Amazingly enough, if you are only a hedgerow hunter and don't require a lurcher to do 'other tasks',..these blasts from the past ,often work out incredibly well, and are they talked about,.. for years to come...

 

You wouldn't think there was any grey in that Phil ,,,,looks like one of the menny,,working collie we see on our farms up north on the fells,,,real lean looking things,,,but with a look of authority and obvious agility ,,,,just the sort you would want to but back in to a lurcher line,,,,,if thats your type of runner

That's the type I'd like to be running never mind putting back into a line

Don't you like a fast dog Chid?

I prefer a mutt that can take knocks lol I'd go for a heavier type lurcher x lurcher over a fast dog and tbh don't think I'd own anything with a fair bit of running dog in it , unless it was a whippet/grey I have a soft spot for them

Fair play

[jukel123 6,570]

So if the man is on top you get one type of nipper, and when the woman is on top you get a different type of nipper?

Come on lads, talk sense, it doesn't matter a f**k whether it's the running dog on top or the collie. It's the same mix of genes.

In my opinion you are only quoting old wives tales if you say the' old guys used to swear by' the collie on top or vice versa.

Or, should I say in the interests of sexual equality 'old geezers tales'.

Sorry I'm not buying this one:- sperm and eggs when mixed together make young uns. End of.

Edited April 21, 2014 by jukel123

[bunnys 1,228]

lots ofhe issues were base animals were there on ta land ,greys were not so easily accessable in times gone by a sperm steal was a common occurance.atb bunnys

[Llywelyn the last 31]

I agree with Jukel123 , which way round does not really matter . As long as both parents have good temperament !. The bitch does have a greater impact on the pups for the simple reason that she rears them , and a bitch that is sensible and calm , would be a more important consideration than whether the dam is a collie or a greyhound . Just my thoughts !