spindolero 1,109 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 nuttalls Penny and punch not looking as bully as in the Fell terrier i think the whole bull twist comes from Plummer he seemed infatuated with bull bred terrier and wouldn't miss a chance to liken the black dogs to little bulls, i don't think he thought these game little workers could be game with out bull blood he was after all bastardizing the breay/buck line to produce the plummer terrier with its beagle and pitbull crosses did Penny go to Northern Ireland to end her days? i was there and recall a conversation along those lines.....albeit in the pub! Quote Link to post
gnasher16 29,602 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 @ Stabs ,didn't have a Tattooed Face by any chance ,mostly walked around with a big white EbT,but kept small game dogs .. HA HA! Did keep some nice dogs that fella, and you could certainly pick him out in a crowd!... Yokel. Did that fellas name begin with T ? used to run around the Reid shows with a tiny little thing that would scream the place down supposedly down from Capone/Trudy and all them dogs from way back.......only ever went to one of them shows,seeing people like him was enough to keep me away Quote Link to post
YOKEL 2,116 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 @ Stabs ,didn't have a Tattooed Face by any chance ,mostly walked around with a big white EbT,but kept small game dogs .. HA HA! Did keep some nice dogs that fella, and you could certainly pick him out in a crowd!... Yokel. Did that fellas name begin with T ? used to run around the Reid shows with a tiny little thing that would scream the place down supposedly down from Capone/Trudy and all them dogs from way back.......only ever went to one of them shows,seeing people like him was enough to keep me away the very fella gnash... Yokel 1 Quote Link to post
gnasher16 29,602 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 I know that argument very well Yokel and it's something that I have spent a lot of time pondering over; too much time if truth be told. Regardless of whether we think that there is terrier in the pit-dogs, there have been well documented crossings between bulldogs and terriers, such as the Billy mentioned a few pages ago. If the Sealyham crosses to correct the linty open Bedlington coat carried by the early Fells is true, then there's bull blood there. There could also be bull blood by the infusion of white dog blood. The baiting sports that were well supported before and after the 1835 Act outlawed them were done by dogs with terrier blood in them. If bulldog and terrier crosses were still being done in the mid-19th century (and they were), then the terrier side of the breeding could well have contained bulldog blood already, so it was adding terrier as well as bull blood back to the bulldog side. There was a few posts about Jock of the Bushveldt on here, and some of you might remember that there was a dog named after this famous bull terrier, and this dog was one of the dogs mated to the (English) Bull Terrier in order to produce the coloured variant. If we accept that Billy is the father of the Manchester Terrier, and he was Bulldog x Bulldog/Terrier, then the Manchester started life heavily saturated in bull blood. This was then crossed to a bulldog to produce Jock, who was then mated into the (English) Bull Terrier lines. Using your argument Yokel, those crosses into the (English) Bull Terrier from what would become the Staffordshire, did any of the blood go the other way from those breedings? Just a thought. A lot of the more obvious bull influenced dogs in the terrier world, in the days before the locator, have actually ceased to exist as working dogs. The Manchester, The English White, Blue Paul, Cheshire, Dudley.....some I believe have been assimilated into other bloodlines...some ceased to have a function and died along with their vocations. Has the locator made what was once considered useless (the mute bull crosses), into a viable proposition? I don't know....I'm just thinking out loud here. Maybe the more modern (in some quarters) insistence on "one dog" allied to the evolution of technology meant that the requirement for a voice has been surpassed by the need for a harder dog? Now that being mute is no longer seen as the hindrance that it once was, maybe the main barrier to using bull blood was removed for all practical purposes? File0139a.jpg File0140a.jpg File0138a.jpg File0141a.jpg jock.jpg What a good and informative post........never really been that much into the history but still a very interesting read Quote Link to post
gnasher16 29,602 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 @ Stabs ,didn't have a Tattooed Face by any chance ,mostly walked around with a big white EbT,but kept small game dogs .. HA HA! Did keep some nice dogs that fella, and you could certainly pick him out in a crowd!... Yokel. Did that fellas name begin with T ? used to run around the Reid shows with a tiny little thing that would scream the place down supposedly down from Capone/Trudy and all them dogs from way back.......only ever went to one of them shows,seeing people like him was enough to keep me away the very fella gnash... Yokel His dogs were not what he said they were......but still decent animals by all accounts Quote Link to post
YOKEL 2,116 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 I know that argument very well Yokel and it's something that I have spent a lot of time pondering over; too much time if truth be told. Regardless of whether we think that there is terrier in the pit-dogs, there have been well documented crossings between bulldogs and terriers, such as the Billy mentioned a few pages ago. If the Sealyham crosses to correct the linty open Bedlington coat carried by the early Fells is true, then there's bull blood there. There could also be bull blood by the infusion of white dog blood. The baiting sports that were well supported before and after the 1835 Act outlawed them were done by dogs with terrier blood in them. If bulldog and terrier crosses were still being done in the mid-19th century (and they were), then the terrier side of the breeding could well have contained bulldog blood already, so it was adding terrier as well as bull blood back to the bulldog side. There was a few posts about Jock of the Bushveldt on here, and some of you might remember that there was a dog named after this famous bull terrier, and this dog was one of the dogs mated to the (English) Bull Terrier in order to produce the coloured variant. If we accept that Billy is the father of the Manchester Terrier, and he was Bulldog x Bulldog/Terrier, then the Manchester started life heavily saturated in bull blood. This was then crossed to a bulldog to produce Jock, who was then mated into the (English) Bull Terrier lines. Using your argument Yokel, those crosses into the (English) Bull Terrier from what would become the Staffordshire, did any of the blood go the other way from those breedings? Just a thought. A lot of the more obvious bull influenced dogs in the terrier world, in the days before the locator, have actually ceased to exist as working dogs. The Manchester, The English White, Blue Paul, Cheshire, Dudley.....some I believe have been assimilated into other bloodlines...some ceased to have a function and died along with their vocations. Has the locator made what was once considered useless (the mute bull crosses), into a viable proposition? I don't know....I'm just thinking out loud here. Maybe the more modern (in some quarters) insistence on "one dog" allied to the evolution of technology meant that the requirement for a voice has been surpassed by the need for a harder dog? Now that being mute is no longer seen as the hindrance that it once was, maybe the main barrier to using bull blood was removed for all practical purposes? File0139a.jpg File0140a.jpg File0138a.jpg File0141a.jpg jock.jpg as there is no like option for you lofty mods, i'll give this the thumbs up... Yokel. 2 Quote Link to post
BIG G wheton machine 1,594 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Tno thanks mate rather have a black coffee, no sugar 2 Quote Link to post
pablo esc 1,598 Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Cheers, i drink both. I messed sending, and that up Quote Link to post
Mouser 18 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Very interesting post, I love reading the old history. Remember before registries, folks bred to type, unless they only kept their own strain. Old history from eastern U.S. States, a hunter named Mordicah(sp?) bred hunting dogs by type, bulldog x running dog x hound crosses. These were all just types of dogs that he crossed to get the dogs he needed to do the job. I'm as sure as anything bull/terrier crosses went both ways, some were hunted, some were pitted to rat or other dogs. I say it just depended on which type of dog they took after. Anyway I've enjoyed most all of the post. Quote Link to post
sammcc 229 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Penny and a son of hers called Brock both finished there days in NI early 80s . Quote Link to post
spindolero 1,109 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Penny and a son of hers called Brock both finished there days in NI early 80s . Thanks Sam, i think i met the man that had her then. Quote Link to post
stop.end 4,079 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 I personally dont think every working terrier line has sporting blood added but a good majority would have dabbled and probably a few generations back! some will admit it, some wont! but i see some people on here saying terriers from say 40s or 50s, and saying thats history lol! i think anyone saying this should check the truth about the true woking terrier.... the terriers role is to go underground.... and since then the true dedicated men are only interested in this.. dogs being able to get to ground and stay til the job was done!. not what they look like or what line they have come from! like some have said..... some tried to shy away from the influence, then some bent and used it and regretted it big time.... a man who once bred good russells bent to this tactic and he said it was the biggest regret in his life..... i also know men who have used the right type and got it right! .... we all have OPINIONS, and to be honest thats all they are... opinions, hear says and from what we all wanted to here at the time when acquiring said line.... nobodies right nobidies wrong, as long as the terrier we keep is working and the men working them are honest all will be ok!...the terrier and his benefical qualitie's has been here for over a thousand years... lets none of us forget. that... 6 Quote Link to post
Bosun11 537 Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Great post S.E. (though i'd disagree with your last line) Quote Link to post
dixiefried 269 Posted April 19, 2014 Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Stopend ; alot of lines will have been influenced by "Bull" on purpose some Some Not !, the Breeder can only go on the information given....Some wich could be Doubtful,more often than not ...thus some Who wish to steer clear of such blood ...will get it ...The breeder then as to Breed to TRAITS & Comformation..and get what he needs..bit like Bosuns' ..Form & Function take .It dont make a Jot ,I.M.O. what's in THERE,it's what comes out ...Goes to ground,gets up to its' Target and produces a Result ..which the Owner is satisfied with.. The Sealyham is a case in hand..Years of breeding going in ...Got the Results that suited the Breeder and the men that WORKED them..would have stayed a viable Terrier,but Lord this Lady that wanted a PRETTIER terrier to parade about with ,after their juant down to Checkers ..Sir Jocelyn..tried to keep it going ,but to many had fell into the wrong Hands ...Hey Presto ! money to be made ..the dog Was F ***d.. Pockets of the Right Stuff ,kept going ,assimilating into other Dogs...Russels ,Fells in my opinion..etc.. It still goes on to Today...Good Terriers & Men that work them to the Max..kept away from the "Madding Crowd " the Rest...left to be paraded ,Tidied up and generaly F**d for the Job in Hand. You only have to look at the "EVOLUTION" of the Sporting Lucas...Working Sealyham..Work for Most ..is not the PRIMARY cosideration Lakeland ,god knows what going in ,and no good coming out ! Personaly ,STORMER breeding ,if it was the REAL stuff ,would have been a good starting Point ! Getting to Ground,working and not bad Jackets,unlike whats been put in .. History has a habit of Repeating itself...HISTORY must be taken on board no matter how far back..to stay away from past mistakes.. I'm for one , really enjoying the History ...New and Old ! more should delve into it.I.M.O. Edited April 19, 2014 by dixiefried 2 Quote Link to post
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