Chicken_man 1,651 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Interesting stuff UK, thanks for sharing :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DUCKWING 302 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Basil ...... theres no family of so called English or oxford game that hasnt had both American blood and to a greater extent a dose of asil and latter in show mens lines Carlisle blood .... hence the body shape and short feathering of them .... which has been since atkinsons time and influence concentrated on by the show men ruining many lines .... The stark facts are the milner type you seem to favour is a modern showmans representation of the breed changing from around 1910 onwards . .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basil123 103 Posted April 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Thank you duckwing for your comments as for showmans type I don't think these would fair well in the show pens that I have been to as they are broader in the chest than the show types that I have seen.but all said I like them and have had these dark legged black reds for quite a few years and I am very pleased with them. If a fault I was going to pick I would say that most of them make 6 lb as an average and some I have now are over that .but like I say they please me and look good walking about my paddocks and yard. Atb basil 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Old Charlie 11 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I agree with duckwing,that stag is of the type they seem to prefer at shows such as the Midland where that broader type of bird seems to do better,a lot of birds there look like they have a fair amount of Carlisle blood in them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basil123 103 Posted April 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 I can assure one and all that there is no Carlisle blood in my stock and I think that any one who thinks they can see Carlisle blood in that stag is sadly misguided .i have been to the midlands and can honestly say that I have never seen a Carlise type or cross in there. In answer to duckwing about American blood in Oxford English ,that is a well known fact but what I was saying was I did not know the full breeding of the white legged cock and could only guess so it would not be something I would breed from. And with regards to the width of chest ,to my. Knowledge an English cock was always broader than an American strain, and just to make clear I am not talking about Carlisle types. .atb basil 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Old Charlie 11 Posted April 2, 2014 Report Share Posted April 2, 2014 Don't think anyone said they could see Carlisle blood in your stag,but you said you didn't think your birds would fair well in the show pens as they are broader in the chest than the show types,I was stating that these are the types of bird that a lot of people show at the Midland and most Oxford breeders would also agree with me that a lot of showmen have infused Carlisle blood into Oxfords for the show pen it is a well known fact,although I have heard that at the moment they are trying to get back to the proper type and the standard of birds is improving it was also said that one very successful oxford showman put leghorn blood in this birds to improve colour,also if we look at this broadness of chest it also leads to broadness in the back and then you invariably lose a prime attribute to a good oxford closeness of heel,one only has to look at a broad chested Carlisle type to see this. Regards Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DUCKWING 302 Posted April 3, 2014 Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 Basil ..... not all of the so called English fowl have Carlisle blood in them ... but a lot do ... its a sad state of affairs that a man would breed something like that into his fowl to win a rosette ! Perhaps the best two familys of "English " fowl in the last thirty five yrs in britain owned by a friend of mine ... I often saw the breeding records .... which showed English , spanish and so called American breeds of english fowl and irish ..... yet the men who wouldn't keep a yank ...were begging for a bird , ..... Iys a shame they are now gone ..... after yrs of constant thefts by travellers 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basil123 103 Posted April 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2014 After a constructive and informative reply why spoil it with the traveller dig. Be told now on open forum keep your opinions about travellers to yourself I find them offensive and arguementive . Some people have cast assumptions about you which may or may not be-true to be honest I don't really care . If you if you can't be nice then don't contribute to any of my posts. If you want to pm me and swap numbers I am only to willing to discuss this with you. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DUCKWING 302 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Fella ...... it wasnt a dig none of my comments are .... they are the truth just because you dont like them doesnt make them lies ....we have had enough of thebullshit on here haven't we of late ! Certain members shouting down anyone that doesn't agree or indeed has a different view . Only reason I got involved was the fact I saw young lads getting sucked into a situation . Which would in all probability have them either without fowl or because of association unable to go anywhere with out a black mark under there names . Let fools think what they want ..... iam a million miles away from the man they said both in character and breeding ..... its a shame they didn't have the insight to see themselves as others see them . Maybe they wouldn't be so shocked when doors are shut in their faces . 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ukroosterman 548 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Duck wing I don't won't to get drawed in to an argument with you again as fort everyone had moved on from that but why must you ruin everyone's topics bye spouting of racists remarks..... Maybe I'm missing the point but what does someone races after do with keeping poultry?... yes we no some travllers are thiefs..... So meny non travlers?.... There's meny a non travller in jail for murders and raspiest...... Does that mean most the man on this forum are tow?.... As for gett to now the five showman you keep refring to...... Cos that's what they are correct me if I'm rong?... Well no thanks.... I'd sooner pull the heads of every bird I own..... Like I seid I don't won't arguement with you so I won't be drawed in to one.... I only come here to talk poultry and look thought the threads..... ATB ukroosterman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
General lee 979 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 This was a good thread I was enjoying reading the history's of the strains and I'm especially interested in the transition from English and Spanish to the American and south American birds can't we get of the travelers being thiefs crap and back to the birds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
basil123 103 Posted April 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Thank you general lee and uk ,I welcome any constructive critasisim duckwing because what is to be learned from some one who only agrees with you because he has no knowledge of his own .lets just kee p to poultry chat and then we can all get along . Please leave the traveller/gypsy bit out and carry on.with reference to the breed being mixed with asil and other types I agree entirely but since I have had these birds I haven't put none in, I have used an American hatch in my duckwings about 7years ago, but I don't know the full breed history of him ,I used him because he was a handsome bird with very strong colours . I believe that some American strains are more true to original o.e.g strains than some so called English of today.but that's a topic for another day . Atb basil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DUCKWING 302 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Fellas I actually mentioned the fact that they have been stolen as to say the best two lines thought of as english are now gone ..... and its a dam shame how they went .... after all there was two lifetimes of work gone ...terrible terrible shame . as for being racist ? ....... well it seems calling a man rascist is now the first refuge of the ethnic minorities ... once they have lost the argument . And no not every traveller is a theif ... but most thefts of gamefowl are by travellers ....... and I would have more respect for travellers if they were open and honest about it . I know the handful of travellers that are welcome most any place will own up to the fact .... and freely state they have had to distance themselves from their community often causing untold trouble . Believe me .... ive the same views about any theif of any background ! Right ..... back to the fowl Gingers ..... the achilles heel of the show men in the Americans are a different breed brigade ! The redquills and there related families were imported after 1900 guess where from ? ... yep America ! .... what were they ? .... yep .. english and irish fowl exported to the states bred by the eslins into a family and then imported after a 50 yrs vacation ! A few men have the straight families here as they came back .... yet the showmen state these are ok to win a rosette as they are " English !" Wonder how they would explain away the fact that at least one line came both straight and pea combed .... and that the original fowl they had imported from england were reffered to as low combed .( pea combed ) before 1850 ..... and well before atkinson and co. Imports of the asil . So how far back exactly do the pea ( low ) combed fowl go ??? Theres a famous woodcut print celebrating two indian cocks being fought in front of Charles the first .... were these the first seen on these shores ? I doubt it , I also don't doubt that some were bred .. ....the facts remain charles 1st was on the throne from 1625 ... and thats a hell of a long time ! .... Duckwing 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ukroosterman 548 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 Duckwing I hope this doesn't come over the rong way.... But does seem to me most times that you find it hard to hold a conversation for period of time with out bring up the travller subject?..... It tends to turn good topics in to a row?... Shame realy. Anyway anuff of that shit!.. I must say I enjoyed reading your last post... Always good to here some history... from what I understand all the american famleys oridganted from english and irish blood lines... And possbilly some Spanish blood.... Some where kept straite.... Some crossed to make diffreant famleys.... I think the problame is you can take to identacile famleys..... And If one is bred where the highest states are .... And another is bred for rosesetts..... After period of time the same tow famley arnt going to resemble each othere in any shape or form Evan if no outside blood is added..... Also would you be kind anuff to shed some light on the history of Dickerson gingers?... ATB ukroosterman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DUCKWING 302 Posted April 4, 2014 Report Share Posted April 4, 2014 I bring up the subject .... because its the biggest problem with the gamefowl scene over the last two decades with many good men and families lost to constant thefts oft wiping out a decades work in one hit ..... that alone puts it at the forefront of every ones mind . charlie dickson gingers ..... he was a friend of some old friends of mine gifting them many fowl .... he received his gingers from Henry parsons who imported them from r.a. mcintyre in the states .... where the family was known as the felix flatheads due to them throwing the odd pea combed fowl ...... I saw many of the line and all were big rugged boney fowl ... nothing like many gingers seen today Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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