Invited On Friends Permission - Advise Please ?

[Deker 3,450]

Well, it sure as heck isn't like me to say it but............. calm down lads.

 

Things are at least a little clearer now on his FAC terms.

 

ATB!

[markha 99]

I have been away from this site for a year or so.

To be honest I can believe that all those who have commented on the original question, except those whos answer was correct, were not able to read their own certificate conditions and figure it out themselves. I can on,y assume there was lots of advice from non FAC holders.

 

If you have a closed ticket, ie you have nominated land on record that you shoot over, it doesnt matter a jot that your mate has invited you to shoot on his permission, all you have to do is make sure you get a 'Land Authority Form' completed by the owner or tenant (farmer who gives your mate permission) who owns the shooting rights giving you permission to shoot there as well. Then you send the map of the area plus the form back to your local firearms team who then add that to your record.

Once you keep adding permissions they will eventually 'open your ticket' when you send in a letter formally requesting and open certificate. You still need to get land authority forms completed for each permission,,but you dont have to inform your local police force.

 

This is why people get so concerned about taking friends on their permissions, as to satisfy the letter of the law, they do in fact have to have permission to be there from the land owner, tenant who Owns the sporting shooting rights.

 

Now, if the Land Authority Form, signed and dated by the owner of the shooting rights and the person who wants permission, has a sentence stating that a guest may accompany the permission holder then it is up to the 'guest' to satisfy themselves that while shooting as a guest, that they can meet the conditions on their certificate... Which is basically get written permission from the owner of the shooting rights.

 

When someone invites me to shoot with rifle, i make a point of adhering to the conditions on my certificate, which is Open.

It doesnt matter if your certificate is open or closed, written permission is needed otherwise you are committing armed trespass, a very serious offence.

 

Atleast that is how I have had it explained to me, and as someone else has already stated on here, the definitive answer will come from your departments in BASC or CA or the other membership organisation that you have membership and public liability insurance with for shooting

[Born Hunter 17,622]

Markha, you do not need written permission, just "lawful authority". And you do not need to inform the Police if the land has already been passed.

 

It's really quite simple, if the landowner okays you to shoot on his land and the land has already been okayed by the Police for that caliber for a previous FAC holder, you are fine to shoot it on a Closed cert.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Born Hunter

[Deker 3,450]

Looks like there is some legs in this thread yet!

[Adrian Prisk 6]

Interesting thread,my ticket says the same, so answered a few questions for me. So when the shearing season starts I will be gaining more permissions. I just need to send off permission to shoot letter. Will the fire arms dept send a letter back stating they have received my permission letter and that iam clear to go ? Considering that I only have a fac air most of farming land should suitable for me.

[charlie caller 3,654]

 

Closed tickets (round here at least) state so and so land or land deemed suitable by the chief constable. (i,e ANY land that has been cleared)

well before ya give advice next time walshie ……check were the man ya advising comes from tornado from south yorkshire quite a way from surrey , may just be a case of different forces different rules ……..north yorkshire police at one time , if certificate was closed and land was named thats all you could shoot over until varied for other land

 

Perhaps I can clear this up as I am in his area, his ticket states he can use his rifles on land deemed suitable by the chief constable, for the area the ground is situated on, so providing he has authority to be on the ground, and it is passed for(in his case .223) he can shoot till the cows come home, just to be safe get your mate to square it with the landowner, to make sure he is happy with you going on his land with your friend, and crack on, thats it no need to over egg the cake, it is that simple.

[delswal 3,817]

In your face Del. I repeat my original advice as it appears it was sound.

1-0 walshie

[dadioles 68]

Although it is not a legal requirement I have always made sure that I have written permission from the landowner and not just verbal. In your case it is slightly more dodgy as you are relying on the word of someone other than the landowner and you do not really know if the person with permission has the lawful authority to give you permission.

 

It is so easy to knock up a simple permission slip and get it signed by the landowner and that way your back is covered.

 

The same applies to checking whether the ground has been approved by the police for your calibre. If it is farm land I am sure it will be approved, particularly for small calibres, but it only takes a quick phone call to the firearms dept for them to confirm it and it is no defence to say "my mate said it was ok".

 

Firearms are to be taken seriously and it is solely YOUR responsibility to get it right, all it takes is a nit picky jobsworth or a nosey neighbour with an axe to grind, or worse still, an accident, and they will be all over you like a rash and that is when you really find out who your friends are as they stand up in court and give a slightly different version of events to what you were expecting and the land owner denies giving you permission!

[SportingShooter 0]

Here we go lads info of my FAC...

 

image.jpg

 

Well that clears all that up then

 

I know facts and firearms law don't always go together but they are handy on occasions.

[Alsone 789]

Although it is not a legal requirement I have always made sure that I have written permission from the landowner and not just verbal. In your case it is slightly more dodgy as you are relying on the word of someone other than the landowner and you do not really know if the person with permission has the lawful authority to give you permission.

 

It is so easy to knock up a simple permission slip and get it signed by the landowner and that way your back is covered.

 

The same applies to checking whether the ground has been approved by the police for your calibre. If it is farm land I am sure it will be approved, particularly for small calibres, but it only takes a quick phone call to the firearms dept for them to confirm it and it is no defence to say "my mate said it was ok".

 

Firearms are to be taken seriously and it is solely YOUR responsibility to get it right, all it takes is a nit picky jobsworth or a nosey neighbour with an axe to grind, or worse still, an accident, and they will be all over you like a rash and that is when you really find out who your friends are as they stand up in court and give a slightly different version of events to what you were expecting and the land owner denies giving you permission!

 

Although I don't disagree with this there are 2 points:

 

1. It may be difficult to get written permission as many landowners don't want to grant permission to everybody - they don't mind you coming with a friend, but they often don't want to grant you individual permission which is what they'd be doing if they fill out a permission form. Effectively you gain a right to shoot the land if they do that. They also often don't want to risk offend their existing shooters by granting more permissions.

 

2. Provided your friends permission slip gives him authority to "bring a friend" (don't use that wording!), then you shouldn't need an individual permission from the landowner, as the landowner has already given permission to you provided your there at the request of the permission holder.

 

This is where to me, it's important to get the initial permission slip right. I know some like to keep it as simple as possible. However, there's a lot to be said for covering all the bases including obtaining permission to bring other shooters under the supervision of the rights holder.

 

What I would say though, is don't take your friends word for it. Always ask to see the permission to check he has authority as its you that will be in trouble without, not him!

Edited March 28, 2014 by Alsone

[kenj 131]

A comment on authority to shoot. I produce a simple authority form for my land owners to sign, which has worked well. Last year one of my landowners died unknown to me, until returning to my van after shooting, I was approached by the wife of the new owner. She was not angry and was quite happy for me to continue shooting rabbits, as they would be putting polo ponies on the land and didn't want any trip hazards. I gave her one of my forms for signature, Next visit she said that her husband, a barrister, had refused to sign the form, as it gave me the shooting rights as a legal document and could be difficult to rescind. He did say that all I needed was verbal authority shoot and gave me their mobile numbers to give to anyone doubting my right to shoot.

[Alsone 789]

@ Ken. I'd be very wary of this though.

 

To give you a quick tale, my father obtained a permission many years ago prior to putting in for an FAC for a .22. When the police went out to interview the land owner, the land owner suddenly denied even knowing him (obviously he had changed their mind). Whilst my father wasn't in trouble as he hadn't shot there due to not having got his FAC (although he recounted things being a bit shaky with the police (maybe they considered wasting time or fraud?), this obviously shows how dangerous it can be to rely on verbal permission.

 

You shoot on some land, the land owner for whatever reason (maybe he suddenly takes a dislike to you or shooting in general), decides to deny permission but doesn't actually inform you. Someone calls the police whilst you are out - lets say a concerned member of the public (or anti), you get stopped on the land, the landowner denies ever granting permission.......

 

The words deep and do da, spring to mind, as you can't prove a thing and they have you bang to rights on land without permission.

 

Best to have everything in writing in my view with a stated method of cancelling the permission eg in writing. That way you'd have given your barrister friend a way of clearly revoking the rights and covered your own backside.

 

Sometimes simplest isn't always best. KISS is a good principle to follow but too simple but can be just as bad as complex.

[kenj 131]

I agree Alsone, it's more iffy, but I did have their personal numbers on my phone, also the previous owner's signature. It would have been a pretty bloody minded copper, who followed it up.

On another occasion I had the tenant farmer's written permission to shoot rabbits over a market garden, only to be almost physically thrown off by a pigeon shooting club, that had paid the absent landowner to shoot pigeons over the land. They were not interested in rabbits, but I lost the shooting.

[Born Hunter 17,622]

Lets face it, a bit of paper with Farmer Giles' scrawling on ain't in anyway binding or proof of permission. So, if he really wanted to f**k you over, he could just deny ever signing it.

 

Just crack on, make an effort to get to know your landowners, drop by and see them regular, they'll appreciate it and make them far less likely to be inclined to stab you in the back..... This sort of stuff used to be standard procedure, what's with all the H&S risk assesments and solicitors these days? I find the best way to completely alienate anybody is asking for their signature!

[Alsone 789]

Lets face it, a bit of paper with Farmer Giles' scrawling on ain't in anyway binding or proof of permission. So, if he really wanted to f**k you over, he could just deny ever signing it.

 

Just crack on, make an effort to get to know your landowners, drop by and see them regular, they'll appreciate it and make them far less likely to be inclined to stab you in the back..... This sort of stuff used to be standard procedure, what's with all the H&S risk assesments and solicitors these days? I find the best way to completely alienate anybody is asking for their signature!

 

Apart from the fact that there's his signature and hand writing analysis.

 

I don't disagree with the 1st part of the 2nd paragraph, but will say its far safer to have to have it in writing. In writing you have something. Verbally you have nothing.

 

That's also why it makes sense to have a get out clause in place as then the land owner can see that he's not signing his life away but can cancel the permission at any time.

 

My ex-bosses favourite saying was always .."cover your back" and it makes sense as I saw a lot of people get in trouble from failing to do that.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Alsone