Stud Dogs

[VOON 1,313]

What does breeding bull dogs have in common with breeding earth dogs? Do they go to ground? Do they breed for nose / find, and one of the most important traits TRAVEL(when in the ground) 3 of the most important qualities that imakes a terrier a terrier.

You're breeding for traits, yes. Bulldogs will go to ground.... They also have good noses, and they also travel...

 

You raise a good point however, what are the main traits you should look for in a working terrier?

 

For me it's,

 

1. Staying ability or gameness.

2. Working style or ability. Ie bayer, mixer etc. brains, game sense

3. Nose,

4 Size.

[Griz 89]

Obviously breeding bulldogs requires an emphasis on certain traits including gameness, athletic ability,biting power,durability,and endurance among others.......A digging terrier needs their own instinctive qualities like, hunt drive , strong locating skills, staying desire , go to ground appetite, and others......Different needs for each breed, but, the same breeding techniques apply, whether your breeding a greyhound or a beagle.

[gasman 53]

.

We are both looking for the "game gene"

I also believe in line / inbreeding over best to best, but do you really believe that we are all breeding for the "game gene". How do you define game when 90% of black dogs ( using black dog as an example) will bay, and mix with their quarry. Can a real game earth dog stay in a hold deep in the bowels of an earth for 4,5,6 plus hours? I have never owned Wheatens pr bulls or been involved in the trials, but from what I've read on here, that if they sounded they were deemed not game.

 

Von some good points, but over the years I have seen a lot of bull cross terriers that lost that trait of going to ground, and wouldn't travel. They would tackle anything on top or in a stop, (something I deplore) but like Alcapone said its all about Opinions. Good thread.

 

Good post griz

Edited June 14, 2014 by gasman

[VOON 1,313]

.

We are both looking for the "game gene"

I also believe in line / inbreeding over best to best, but do you really believe that we are all breeding for the "game gene". How do you define game when 90% of black dogs ( using black dog as an example) will bay, and mix with their quarry. Can a real game earth dog stay in a hold deep in the bowels of an earth for 4,5,6 plus hours? I have never owned Wheatens pr bulls or been involved in the trials, but from what I've read on here, that if they sounded they were deemed not game.

Von some good points, but over the years I have seen a lot of bull cross terriers that lost that trait of going to ground, and wouldn't travel. They would tackle anything on top or in a stop, (something I deplore) but like Alcapone said its all about Opinions. Good thread.

Good post griz

 

Gasman,

 

I believe that staying ability in terriers and gameness in bulldogs are inherited traits or instincts, and when it can be genetically mapped there will in the same "genetic whatever". I'm not an expert and I could be 100 percent wrong, it's just my thoughts on it.

 

I agree with you on some bull bred types not travelling, but I have seen it in working terrier breeds as well.

It comes back to selectivity doesn't it. If you select for muteness you will perpetuate that trait, etc.

 

In working terriers baying, mixing has been a major selection criteria.

 

With the advent of locators, would you think working terriers in General have got better, worse? Is there a movement towards a stronger mixer type versus an out and out bayer type?

[Guest alcapone]

Yes gasman the trials were a different thing,dogs worked for 6 minuites at the trial. I also do know of a particular line of bla k dog renowned for working mute,and i know these dogs are happy to work 2/3 hrs plus and mute,this is the particular line of dogs im refering to. Lets not forget when a terrier is working tough game that weighs more than the terrier and in pitch black in an enviroment that its quarry is better suited to i believe the game gene is the most important thing,as game hears you getting closer will want to push by a dog (especially educated game) the dog has to stand his ground to a heavier tougher and stronger aponent,surely that requires gameness,weather he has spent hours in grips or bayed and mixed? . If you've never been involved in the bulldog scene its hard to appreciate certain opinions,not a criticism just an observation. This is the best thread ive read in a long time. Some intresting points griz.

Edited June 14, 2014 by alcapone

[Griz 89]

The game gene?.......Labeling traits such as "game" or "gameness" and applying them to a dog or breed is very misleading, and just a label that can have different meanings to different people.......Gameness likely applies more accurately to pit dogs than to other breeds.....TENACITY seems to be a more fitting term for a digging terrier that stays to his quarry......While both words relate to a dogs aggressive nature , different meanings usually apply respectively......Gameness often comes in varying degrees that can only be determined if displayed under a watchful audience.....Tenacity can be a bit easier to come to terms with as a dog staying to the task until dug to may be said to display tenacity.......Gameness may (or may not) be shown when going to ground.....Gameness is a term thrown about way to loosely, and should only be reserved to those that display a stick to it attitude when they are GETTING IT HANDED TO THEM ,but, continue the task at hand..........It's all in a word and the meaning applied in the appropriate manner.

[dixiefried 269]

GASMAN.. think it is the Type of Terriermen you are seeing now thats changed..not alot of Moochin' types .....Athough alot of the Old Skool 'liked their Digging.Foxing they would I.M.O. prefer a bolt..Their dogs would work Whins ,just as good as an Earth...Baying & Mixing in Equal dozes..for Hours at a time..

The 90s' seemed to bring in Fellas with no patience,was it through the Bull breeds ? the Lakie fell out of favour,even the Brightmoor Hard Type

Fashion ? who knows?

Now it seems ,the want is Hole...Drop ...Dig..As fast as you can maybe you HAVE to, as the Dog will be Known to mix too Much..Damage limitation !

I think like everything ,instant results are what Drives the Breeding in a lot of strains..maybe Wrong..just my view of it ..Been around alot of wee dogs Get a good days Outing out of them Sat & Sun ..Not lately !!! times are a changing..I for one would like the clock turned back a bit ..Less Stress round digs ..

[Bosun11 537]

Good post Dixie, I get ya and agree with ya.

 

Personally I've never associated, nor used the word gameness when talking about Working Terriers and in that I mean earth dog. I loved that post Voon put up, makes good sense to me but father along the posts there seems some confusion with what that post really means. I simply read it as someones best method of producing, what traits you are producing ate entirely up to the individual producing them, no more no less.

 

In working terriers my 'old school' priority's would be the traits of finding and staying, for which ever way a dog chooses to work once engaged is the by product, because if it can't find it, or stick to it, you ain't gonna dig to it.... Simples!

 

Old school mentality eh... I've been lucky to have had some bloody good conversations with some old school names over the years and in working terriers, I can't recall any of 'em referring to dogs as 'game'. Hard, yes. Tough, yes. Even reckless, but not game. That word, for me, came with the American dogs, en mass, in the 80's and like Dixie said, it seems used with folk of little patience... I will forever want a dog that can go real deep in that testing Cheshire ground and stay there, all fecking day if required.

Times have changed.

[tillearthdouspart 100]

Theirs plenty a dogs out their as good as eachother and not making a name but whats to say their any less a dog than the great dogs of days gone by that just been small minded in my opinion there always be something better in the game its down to the owners some want to keep quiet bout it some dont . But whats really important working terriers are still going strong no matter who has the so called best studd

[gasman 53]

 

 

Voon imop with today's laws the move now seems to be moving to a more durable baying type dog.

Edited June 15, 2014 by gasman

[Cleanspade 3,322]

Voon imop with today's laws the move now seems to be moving to a more durable baying type dog.

i agree with this. however standards still need to be high. whatever the work style

[fat man 4,740]

Voon imop with today's laws the move now seems to be moving to a more durable baying type dog.

Thats the way todays laws are dictating to us but if you keep breeding bayer-bayer well imo eventually you will end up with second rate terriers.My moto was never to breed of a bitch that was not capable of ending a fox below ground and for the dog to do it on a regular basis.Lads keep different standards of terrier and thats there choise but i reckon if everyone started to keep bayers it would be the runation of the working terrier,jmo.

[Comrade 45]

Common sense is always the best moto fat

[Mosby 355]

Sadly, that's not common sense Comrade. Our fox aren't tough at all, so they aren't our measuring stick. But a great number of people I've met don't care how good the bitch is. Everybody's measuring stick is different but I think fatman's measure is about where I stand. Get to the game and stay there, if the bitch or dog can, kill the game. I live in America where that's legal. Fox might be more durable than nutria(though I have a buddy who said he'd rather put a young dog on fox than nutria any day) but I expect a dog to kill the majority of nutria by the time I can get there. A bitch should try to kill. On coon, it'd be a rare bitch under twenty pounds that kills them.

[stop.end 4,079]

there no big mystery behind it if you open your eyes to true terrier work....

although some love the hype.... names and supposed quick fix potions ...... to make a terrier work to a standard...its not black and white..... no blueprint!

 

like they would like you to think... its not a fad or something to stumble upon... it should be like art and with every drawing or pup....

your paintings or pups should be better than the last, ..

genuine quality and consistency and honesty, should give the right men what they need..... to spread the seed!

 

GMO's will always find their way into a healthy system and be a factor if we let them.....