Rats In A Loft

[Deker 3,453]

Difenacoum Toxicity
Oral doses in mg/kg:

LD50

rats 1.8
mice 0.8
rabbits 2
hens 100
dogs 50
cats 100
pigs -100

 

Lots of sources for figures, by all means do your own maths, it can be fun and games for secondary poisoning, but whichever way you want to look at it the non target species would need to eat an awful lot of poisoned rodents!

[Grizzly 26]

 

A rat only needs to consume 9g of Difenacoum in order to succumb to the poison therefore, in order for a 35kg lab to die of secondary poisoning through eating rats alone, it would need to consume almost 4000 rats in a short space of time.

 

I have no doubt that you are better at Maths than me ! But that calculation is true providing the rat ONLY EATS ENOUGH to die. Rats need to consume (on average) around 10% of their body weight per day to survive. So a rat weighing in at 1 kilo (just an example to make the maths easy for me) can eat 100g of food, and potentially 100g of rodenticide in a single day. Most SGARs take (on average) 3 days to kill a rat. So rat comes to a bait box with 100g of rodenticide in, and can and will eat the lot. He then moves on to next bait box...

 

 

I highly doubt I'm better than anyone at maths, my 8 year old regularly assures me of this

 

The figures I quoted were simply based on the amount of Difenacoum required to kill the animal and the calculations were made using the said figures. I understand that there are many contributing factors to how much rats will ingest while feeding and therefore how quickly they will succumb to the poison. On average, rats will typically consume 2-3g of food at each 'meal' time so you could suggest that if feeding on poison alone they will have ingested enough poison after 4.5 meals. They eat between 25-30g of food (as you say, 10% of its bodyweight) a day made up of around 10 meals so theoretically, can consume enough poison in one day to kill the rat. This, (in a real world situation) probably isn't realistic as rats may not eat only poison each time they feed but it gives an idea as to the potential timescale involved.

[Mr Muddy 141]

Not trying to nit pick, or be clever, mate. But; Having all my life found both shrews and moles left, laying dead, and totally untouched by predators or scavengers;

 

I'd pretty much accepted that f**k all eats them.

 

Mate of mine ate a mole once (He's eaten most things, just to see) Reckons fox is pretty rank. But Mole?!? He just can't express how disgusting that is.

 

I figure other creatures feel the same way about those, and shrews. Similar diets, interestingly.

 

 

Fascinating things wild animals, arn’t they.

 

I’ve been told by lots of people that nothing eats moles. But then I’ve found half-eaten moles in my traps and I’ve also found their skulls in owl pellets.

 

One type of shrew, water shrews, actually has a poisonous bite. I recon moles and shrew type animals might have some residual poison that makes them all taste a bit icky.

 

I’ve no idea how you’d test that theory: unless you can get your mate to eat a water shrew. If it tastes like mole, only even worse, I think I’m onto something.

[Tiercel 6,986]

I feel like a 10 year old talking to adults, I want to know, but am wary of asking the wrong questions. The only experience I have had is within my own properties, and I am wondering if the way the rats act here is a-typical of the way rats act in general? Even when, through my tardiness they have become entrenched, they are not that diffcult to trap.

 

As has been stated it could be the food factor, in that apart from the black bags, that we have to store for two weeks at a time, there is little food on offer to them. Funnily enough, I compost all my peelings yet the compost bin is never raided, and it is situated right next to one of the runs into the propety at the bottom of the garden. If previous years are anything to go by I am expecting the perimiter traps to start catching within the next few weeks with mostly juvenile rats.

 

TC

[Deker 3,453]

I feel like a 10 year old talking to adults, I want to know, but am wary of asking the wrong questions. The only experience I have had is within my own properties, and I am wondering if the way the rats act here is a-typical of the way rats act in general? Even when, through my tardiness they have become entrenched, they are not that diffcult to trap.

 

As has been stated it could be the food factor, in that apart from the black bags, that we have to store for two weeks at a time, there is little food on offer to them. Funnily enough, I compost all my peelings yet the compost bin is never raided, and it is situated right next to one of the runs into the propety at the bottom of the garden. If previous years are anything to go by I am expecting the perimiter traps to start catching within the next few weeks with mostly juvenile rats.

 

TC

 

 

You can only generalise over any animal behaviour, there are always exceptions to the rule!

 

[Matt 160]

I’ve been told by lots of people that nothing eats moles. But then I’ve found half-eaten moles in my traps and I’ve also found their skulls in owl pellets.

Owls, Magpies, Crows, Ravens, Badgers and other moles all eat moles

 

It's not at all uncommon for me to find a mole with it's arse end eaten out in a mole trap. That's why strychnine was so effective; moles will happily eat their own kind; anything for a bit of protein

 

As Deker quite rightly points out; rats are like people; you can generalise about their behaviour but individuals, family groups, social groups and geographic groups may all have slightly different patterns of behaviour.

 

Like hunting of any kind, sometimes you have to 'best guess' the likely actions of your chosen quarry. With rats, expect the unexpected should always be rule number one.

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

 

Owls, Magpies, Crows, Ravens, Badgers and other moles all eat moles

 

It's not at all uncommon for me to find a mole with it's arse end eaten out in a mole trap. That's why strychnine was so effective; moles will happily eat their own kind; anything for a bit of protein

 

 

 

That's interesting, Matt. That you specify birds and badgers. Birds, to the best of my 'knowledge' (Or complete lack of it on this point) have no sense of taste, as such, I think? I always sort of justified this with the consideration that seed eaters hardly needed it. Vultures must be f**king glad they lack it! ) But, that would account for birds abilities to eat the vile things.

 

Only badgers though? This is interesting. So, badgers, TC's cat and mole on mole. No foxes, Dogs or mustalids? And yet, a mouse wouldn't last five minutes.

 

If I had the time and mental energy any more, I'd dedicate myself to tracking down the definitive answers in all this. So I'd know before I died. As it is? F**k it!

[Matt 160]

Badgers can be the bane of my life (in more ways than one). They dig up and carry off mole traps on a regular basis, which (given I charge per mole) can get expensive.

 

Still, I shouldn't complain too much; at least I got the chance for some vengeance last year

 

As for birds tasting food, it's an interesting question. Birds undoubtedly favour some foods over others (pheasants prefer wheat and maize for example, and aniseed additives are very common), but what attracts them to those foods if it's not taste?

 

Are birds capable of recognising more nutritious foods, or do they actually 'like' certain foods for different reasons?

 

Questions, questions, questions.............. sometimes we need to sit back and think about things. Wouldn't life be dull if we all knew all of the answers?

[Phil Lloyd 10,736]

Interesting comments from all concerned..

 

I've spent a long time, pursuing pests,..mostly animals,.but a few two legged animals as well,..

 

Facts are, when it comes to rats,.this Neophobia business is extremely varied and rarely definitive.

 

I've worked on Game Farms, Pheasant Shoots,.Pig Farms and Factories,..Leisure Complexes, Bakeries, Supermarkets and Swimming Pools..Feck it, you name it,..I've laid poison amidst it,.. or trapped it,..and this massive variety of areas,.is the way to get the feel for this often awkward situation.

 

I've sat and watched rats, willingly approach a recently laid bait box or even a trap, set only moments before,...they have walked straight into it,..yet on other places,.they act as though they are on speed or something,..spooky as ya like and scared of their own shadows.

 

My quickest 'take' of rodenticide from a dozen or so boxes,.was on a scrap yard..

The rodents were definitely not starving, as there was rubbish and debris 'on tap' ,.but they could not wait to feed on the bait stations. They had no fear.

I can only put this down to the fact, that scrap cars and heaps of waste metal, were being moved about continually...

 

As for killing dogs with Anticoagulants,.well,.it must occur,..(although Strychnine was a more likely cause in rural areas) but as folk have said, some Vets are too quick to agree with an owner, who claims his dog ate poison and died as a consequence. Such unsubstantiated claims are often the bane of a Pest Controller's life.....and contracts have been lost through such a fabrication.The only real way to find out if a pile of rat bait actually killed a dog is by dint of an expensive and clear cut Autopsy,.and few people are going to get into that costly scenario,..so,.the legend lives on.

I have seen dogs consume Warfarin in quantity,..(anyone remember the old style Vitalin dog feed ? )...well,.I had a Deerhound lurcher,.a veritable pig of a cur,..that ate a bucket load of the farmer's rat bait and suffered no ill health as a consequence,.in fact, she went looking for more, the following morning...

Obviously,.such a thing is not to be recommended and if it had been Brodifacoum, the end result would have been fecking disastrous,.but it wasn't and in reality,.dogs dying through eating bait is not common.

 

The rules and regulations are being tightened up, as we speak, and a modern pester must take part in an on going training of refresher courses and awareness. He must be accountable for his actions.

This is a good thing, it had to come and will probably signal the death knell for many of us old timers.

 

Personaly,.I feel that in the years to come,..more and more reliance will be placed upon exclusion and trapping, as opposed to poison baits....The rules will still get tighter and tighter, and the larger companies will eat the small contractor up,..like a voracious rat eats a Ginsters Pie.

 

One thing I do know,..the rat will always be with us,...two legged un's as well..

 

Edited February 28, 2014 by Phil Lloyd

[talpa 55]

Badgers can be the bane of my life (in more ways than one). They dig up and carry off mole traps on a regular basis, which (given I charge per mole) can get expensive.

 

Still, I shouldn't complain too much; at least I got the chance for some vengeance last year

 

As for birds tasting food, it's an interesting question. Birds undoubtedly favour some foods over others (pheasants prefer wheat and maize for example, and aniseed additives are very common), but what attracts them to those foods if it's not taste?

 

Are birds capable of recognising more nutritious foods, or do they actually 'like' certain foods for different reasons?

 

Questions, questions, questions.............. sometimes we need to sit back and think about things. Wouldn't life be dull if we all knew all of the answers?

In general birds have far fewer taste receptors than mammals, as I recall Sweet is missing completely and bitter has few receptors. Taste being for nutrient sensing mainly hence you get food preferences for high nutritional foods, the situation varies greatly between species depending on what they have evolved to eat. This is why a chilli based additive for bird food repels Squirrels but does not affect feeding by your favourite garden birds on the nut feeder. The birds tongue make up is very different to mammals being more or less a flap of grissle and small in comparisson to mammals so not much room for nerves, receptors and blood vessels needed, it mainly gets used to hold and force food items down the throat.

Moles and shrews are the only animal/bird that my ferrets have been known to refuse when I tried to see what they would and wouldn'y eat out of curiosity. My terrier will bite down on them when I remove them from traps and will retrieve them but always with a look of disgust on her face and spitting them out, so may be there is a foul taste to them.

With rats the best bait is generally to use what they are eating or something we percieve as similar. I have sometimes had problems getting 'takes' and often found they get stuck on one food sort, many of the pros on here will have found this often in pubs, shops where they just go for Beef Crisps and will attack them wherever they are put in the place - so bait traps with Beef crisps!

Totally agree with Phil, with all the focus on sgar's and waste regs at the moment things will get far more prescriptive for those that have a professional approach, the trouble is the focus will then move to the EU looking at trap efficacy and protocols, it has been raised previously but nothing happened but there will be many parties keen to promote it and restrict our methods and equipment even further by having standards for mouse rat and mole traps more akin to spring traps approval order, and likely to go with NZ test levels that would put vertually all our go to traps off limits.

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

Moles and shrews are the only animal/bird that my ferrets have been known to refuse when I tried to see what they would and wouldn't eat out of curiosity.

 

 

Sweet! It never occurred to me, back in the day, to try ferrets on them. I offered mine fox, once. Only once ....!

 

Strange that my mate's ate fox. But, he's the dirty c*** who tasted mole! Maybe his ferrets took after him?

[paulus 26]

 

 

Owls, Magpies, Crows, Ravens, Badgers and other moles all eat moles

 

It's not at all uncommon for me to find a mole with it's arse end eaten out in a mole trap. That's why strychnine was so effective; moles will happily eat their own kind; anything for a bit of protein

 

 

 

That's interesting, Matt. That you specify birds and badgers. Birds, to the best of my 'knowledge' (Or complete lack of it on this point) have no sense of taste, as such, I think? I always sort of justified this with the consideration that seed eaters hardly needed it. Vultures must be f**king glad they lack it! ) But, that would account for birds abilities to eat the vile things.

 

Only badgers though? This is interesting. So, badgers, TC's cat and mole on mole. No foxes, Dogs or mustalids? And yet, a mouse wouldn't last five minutes.

 

If I had the time and mental energy any more, I'd dedicate myself to tracking down the definitive answers in all this. So I'd know before I died. As it is? F**k it!

 

its a funny old world but when i bred sparrowhawks a long while ago they would not touch a starling even when i hunted with one and they killed a starling they would pluck into the skull and eat the brain but never touch the meat

[socks 32,253]

I have tried my ferrets on moles many times and they refuse point blank to eat them ... The only other thing they refused to eat was a heron ........

[paulus 26]

I have tried my ferrets on moles many times and they refuse point blank to eat them ... The only other thing they refused to eat was a heron ........

now mine ate both heron and fox but no way they would touch a mole

[socks 32,253]

Mine would eat fox also .......