22 Subsonic

[Alsone 789]

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Alsone

[Deker 3,453]

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

 

 

Of course its not uncommon, I shoot many hundred every year, where I struggle is with the comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

And if you have seen MANY a bullet pass clean through and ricochet then I can but suggest your pal has a lot to learn about shot placement and ammo choice!

 

Sorry chap, your comments about preferring HMR on that basis are naive! It is ridiculously immature to suggest a 245 ft lb V-Max is better/safer than a 100ft lb .22lr sub with the right ammo on that basis PERIOD. Do you have a FAC yet or is this all down to what you have read?

 

EDIT

I'm not having a dig here, but experience counts for a lot!

Edited September 16, 2013 by Deker

[Yokel Matt 918]

 

I'd be more suprised if they didn't go straight through - I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

Don't get me started on CCI snap, crackle & pops...

 

What animal are you talking about, Winchester and Magtech have a BIG HP and commonly deliver a lot of energy and stay in.

 

 

Rabbits mate - I know they have a large HP which may dump into them harder but I stand by my reconing that the rounds pass through more often than not although I can't say I've spent time fishing around the cavaties looking for lead.

[Deker 3,453]

 

 

I'd be more suprised if they didn't go straight through - I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

Don't get me started on CCI snap, crackle & pops...

 

What animal are you talking about, Winchester and Magtech have a BIG HP and commonly deliver a lot of energy and stay in.

 

 

Rabbits mate - I know they have a large HP which may dump into them harder but I stand by my reconing that the rounds pass through more often than not although I can't say I've spent time fishing around the cavaties looking for lead.

 

That is seriously NOT what you said, I wouldn't have bothered if that was your original comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

[AR177 588]

winnie were poor for me, I use eley and have had no problems - although I stopped testing brands when I found one I liked

[dixyhmr 62]

Ive had a lot of accuracy problems with Winchester subs lately. Ive used them for the last 10 years with no issues but since changing the packaging the group sizes went from normal size to 2" @ 60 yards. Several others I know are also experiencing issues.

 

Ive since changed to eley which has always shot about the same accuracy as the Winchesters. I prefer the Winchesters to be honest. I find they are a nice hard hitting round, and also cheaper than the eleys but if the accuracy isn't there then they just aren't any good.

 

Maybe its just related to the first batches and hopefully itl sort itself out over the coming year.

[sprocker dog 7]

Some interesting comments on this subject. Is all I can say is I shoot 10 000 rabbits a year as a pest controller and up until the new look winch esters came out there were certainly less bullets passing through. If head shot they don't seem to pass through, they sometimes ricochet but the hard whack report normally means the shot has been absorbed. I try not to shoot in the guts as this is not only in humane but being a softer area a 40 gr slug can pass through. The shots I've noticed passing through more than before are neck/ shoulder placements where there is enough bone to cause the bullet to partially expand. If some people are looking for lead in cavity then I would suggest trying to avoid shooting into the cavity in the first place and head shoot if possible.

[guyliath 15]

Used winchesters in my 10/22 and had a terrible time with them. Lots of inaccuracy even at short ranges, they were much "dirtier" than anything else i used. So i packed them in. I use only cci now my gun likes them so thats that. Using the segmented hp subs now bloody brilliant round. Just my 2cents.

[Alsone 789]

 

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

 

 

Of course its not uncommon, I shoot many hundred every year, where I struggle is with the comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

I never said that, not my quote.

 

 

And if you have seen MANY a bullet pass clean through and ricochet then I can but suggest your pal has a lot to learn about shot placement and ammo choice!

 

 

My mate is very experienced he has an open ticket on all of his rifles right up to and including his 30-06.

 

I've seen both head shots and body shot pass straight through rabbits with Winchester subs. Nothing wrong with the ammo or shot placement. Just a fact that a bullet that expands going into a soft thin bodied animal is likely to pass through unless it hits something to significantly slow it such as bone. Sometimes the bullet path is just luck.

 

I don't agree with the other poster than ALL .22's pass through quarry. I've only seen a few ricochet, but ricochet they do. It's certainly not all but neither is it rare.

 

Sorry chap, your comments about preferring HMR on that basis are naive! It is ridiculously immature to suggest a 245 ft lb V-Max is better/safer than a 100ft lb .22lr sub with the right ammo on that basis PERIOD. Do you have a FAC yet or is this all down to what you have read?

 

EDIT

I'm not having a dig here, but experience counts for a lot!

 

 

A round that fragments is much safer than a round that expands from a ricocheting pov as the energy is divided between each individual fragment so the fragments are much less likely to exit and fly much less further if they do. To put it another way, if your .22 subs hits with 99ft lbs, then you have 1 mass with 99 ft lbs of energy. If your HMR hits with 300 ft pounds of energy and fragments into ten, then you have 10 fragments with only 30ft lbs of energy and far less mass. Less energy and less mass results in an object coming to rest much faster and also the smaller the object the greater the surface friction to mass ratio.

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years.

[Yokel Matt 918]

 

 

 

I'd be more suprised if they didn't go straight through - I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

Don't get me started on CCI snap, crackle & pops...

 

What animal are you talking about, Winchester and Magtech have a BIG HP and commonly deliver a lot of energy and stay in.

 

 

Rabbits mate - I know they have a large HP which may dump into them harder but I stand by my reconing that the rounds pass through more often than not although I can't say I've spent time fishing around the cavaties looking for lead.

 

That is seriously NOT what you said, I wouldn't have bothered if that was your original comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

Piss off Mr semi-pro going through the ins outs of a cats ass trying to find fault to inflate his own ego. I know what I said - I can see it in my previous reply - and in most of yours where you've seen fit to highlight it in bold. I am talking from experience - obviously not as much as you claim to have though you plonker. Go and set yourself a challenge, something you can draw a graph on and bore us all with the months and years to come - shoot 100 rabbits and tell me how may slugs you can find. I really would be genuinely interested.

[Deker 3,453]

 

 

 

 

I'd be more suprised if they didn't go straight through - I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

Don't get me started on CCI snap, crackle & pops...

 

What animal are you talking about, Winchester and Magtech have a BIG HP and commonly deliver a lot of energy and stay in.

 

 

Rabbits mate - I know they have a large HP which may dump into them harder but I stand by my reconing that the rounds pass through more often than not although I can't say I've spent time fishing around the cavaties looking for lead.

 

That is seriously NOT what you said, I wouldn't have bothered if that was your original comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

Piss off Mr semi-pro going through the ins outs of a cats ass trying to find fault to inflate his own ego. I know what I said - I can see it in my previous reply - and in most of yours where you've seen fit to highlight it in bold. I am talking from experience - obviously not as much as you claim to have though you plonker. Go and set yourself a challenge, something you can draw a graph on and bore us all with the months and years to come - shoot 100 rabbits and tell me how may slugs you can find. I really would be genuinely interested.

 

 

"I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots"

 

post questioned and response

 

"I stand by my reconing that the rounds pass through more often than not although I can't say I've spent time fishing around the cavaties looking for lead"

 

I'm not the one that made the post, and I'm not the one that changed the story later when questioned.

Daft ill considered post, not my fault there was a problem between your brain and fingers so abuse is hardly called for!

[Deker 3,453]

 

 

It's not uncommon for them to pass through rabbits. My mate uses Winchester subs and I've seen many a bullet pass through and ricochet off the path. One of the reasons I prefer .17 HMR over .22.

 

That said, can't beat .22 sub for stealth.

 

 

Of course its not uncommon, I shoot many hundred every year, where I struggle is with the comment I can't think of a single occasion where a .22 LR slug stayed in the cavity even with long range shots.

 

I never said that, not my quote. You appear to have questioned my response though, my apologies if that was not aimed at me.

 

 

And if you have seen MANY a bullet pass clean through and ricochet then I can but suggest your pal has a lot to learn about shot placement and ammo choice!

 

 

My mate is very experienced he has an open ticket on all of his rifles right up to and including his 30-06. Having an Open Ticket doesn't mean you know what you are doing, for instance, how many different types of .22lr ammo does he use?

 

I've seen both head shots and body shot pass straight through rabbits with Winchester subs. Nothing wrong with the ammo or shot placement. Just a fact that a bullet that expands going into a soft thin bodied animal is likely to pass through unless it hits something to significantly slow it such as bone. Sometimes the bullet path is just luck. I think you will find that comes under the heading, Shot Placement and Ammo Choice, has it not occurred to you (or him) that Winchester .22lr Subs are not the only type/weight/energy of ammo!

 

I don't agree with the other poster than ALL .22's pass through quarry. I've only seen a few ricochet, but ricochet they do. It's certainly not all but neither is it rare. I have never disputed that, of course they go through at times.

 

Sorry chap, your comments about preferring HMR on that basis are naive! It is ridiculously immature to suggest a 245 ft lb V-Max is better/safer than a 100ft lb .22lr sub with the right ammo on that basis PERIOD. Do you have a FAC yet or is this all down to what you have read?

 

EDIT

I'm not having a dig here, but experience counts for a lot!

 

 

A round that fragments is much safer than a round that expands from a ricocheting pov as the energy is divided between each individual fragment so the fragments are much less likely to exit and fly much less further if they do. To put it another way, if your .22 subs hits with 99ft lbs, then you have 1 mass with 99 ft lbs of energy. If your HMR hits with 300 ft pounds of energy and fragments into ten, then you have 10 fragments with only 30ft lbs of energy and far less mass. Less energy and less mass results in an object coming to rest much faster and also the smaller the object the greater the surface friction to mass ratio. For someone who reads a lot it appears you did not understand my qualified response, that is NOT what I said. Of course .22lr subs can pass clean through, that is what shot placement and ammo choice will minimise, to say you prefer HMR to .22lr because it doesn't ricochet is an admission of failure, what do you think the world did before HMR came along for well over 100 years with the .22lr, people learnt to use it and match quarry/land/ammo as best as possible! They didn't say "Oh I had a ricochet, the .22lr is dangerous I must get something else". There is no argument that .22lr can ricochet, but ammo can be found in a VAST array of types, weights and energy from around 30ft lb to just over 200ft lb, so in the majority of cases a ricochet is down to wrong shot placement or wrong ammo choice. Many will also tell you their 30ft lb .22 Air rifles goes clean through a rabbit, so what do you do about that, tell them to buy a HMR?

 

No I don't have an FAC as you pointed out, but I have been walking around with someone that has for years. Try and find someone else then, or get your own ticket and find out.

 

Edited September 17, 2013 by Deker

[Deker 3,453]

Some interesting comments on this subject. Is all I can say is I shoot 10 000 rabbits a year as a pest controller and up until the new look winch esters came out there were certainly less bullets passing through. If head shot they don't seem to pass through, they sometimes ricochet but the hard whack report normally means the shot has been absorbed. I try not to shoot in the guts as this is not only in humane but being a softer area a 40 gr slug can pass through. The shots I've noticed passing through more than before are neck/ shoulder placements where there is enough bone to cause the bullet to partially expand. If some people are looking for lead in cavity then I would suggest trying to avoid shooting into the cavity in the first place and head shoot if possible.

 

There are a LOT of people here who haven't shot anything like that quantity in their whole life.

 

10,000 a year equates to approx. 27 a DAY, EVERY day of the year, that is a LOT of rabbits, there will be very few that achieve those numbers.

[Deker 3,453]

So, back to the topic.

 

IF more Winchester are passing clean through the question has to be WHY.

 

On the basis they are still (on the whole) sub sonic it is not speed.

 

Has the bullet design changed, is the HP smaller, is the bullet composition/materials harder, etc?

 

Any offers, I don't actually have any of the new packing/new manufacturing plant ammo yet, so I don't know!

Edited September 17, 2013 by Deker

[Yokel Matt 918]

You do an excellent job of coming accross as a book smart, condecending prick in most of your posts Deker. I said i'd never found LR lead in a rabbit cavity / under the skin on the opposite side, with the numbers i've shot my assumption would be because the lead had all passed through. I then clarity my 'Daft ill considered post' knowing you'd probably be rubbing your hands with glee and here we are.

 

Show me the lead then.