Gwp's Cross Labs

[Tiercel 6,986]

 

misconception about

your right I haven't shot over them but the times I have seen them out I honestly don't know how you would stop them from ranging to far other than keeping them at heal you say you havn't knocked other breeds that's not strictly true as you is it ? by stating (not do better than gwp!).as for qualified who is it's just my opinion giving in the reply to your post and by the way TC you must be as old as me a.t.b.

 

That is the populer misconception about HPR you do not need to stop them ranging, in fact you should encourage it, even for rough shooting, as you will cover twice the ground in half the time. Take a secenario of a thick hawthorn or blackthorn hedge, You would put a spaniel or lab to work at one end and work along the hedge. No need to do that with a HPR all you need to do is put the dog on the down wind side of the hedge and let it run along the hedge if there is anything at home the dog will come on point, it does not matter if the dog is a 100 yards away from you it will stay on point till told to flush. I used to do a lot of woodcock shooting and they were brilliant for it.

 

The only difference is you have to learn how the dog uses the wind, A good pointer will always work into the wind naturally therefore you have to work the ground with this in mind. I know some have a walk around and chose the same route each time. You cannot do that, well you can, but it would be putting the dog at a disadvantage and be counterproductive.

 

As I said in a post earlier in this thread training a pointer GWP's especially is a shock to the system if you have only trained spaniels and labs etc: You have to rethink everything you have learned about working dogs. You have to be able to have that trust in the dog and some people just are not capable of giving that trust. Some people are not happy to betold there is no water in the bucket they have to tip it up to see for themselves.

 

TC

Edited June 26, 2013 by tiercel

[hily 379]

I can see the use of pointing in wide open spaces coming onto point and allowing the gun to catch up and take aim .In the real rough shoot you hunt up behind your dog working to find and flush within shot even if the wind direction changes also not many of rabbits on my permission will site tight while a dog runs past to position itself in the right wind direction. I do not doubt the gws can work well in the field but again I stick by my reply in saying gwp is not the best dog to rough shoot over in the way I and many of my friends rough shoot . As for covering twice the ground in half the time champion for driven shooting but rough shooting isn't a race.

Edited June 26, 2013 by hily

[Lab 10,979]

I can see the use of pointing in wide open spaces coming onto point and allowing the gun to catch up and take aim .In the real rough shoot you hunt up behind your dog working to find and flush within shot even if the wind direction changes.I do not doubt the gws can work well in the field but again I stick by my reply in saying gwp is not the best dog to rough shoot over in the way I and many of my friends rough shoot . As for covering twice the ground in half the time champion for driven shooting but rough shooting isn't a race.

I think we are on the same wave length here mate. For me rough shooting is working the dog and the surprise element of a bird getting up..whether its a pheasant, partridge, woodcock or whatever. I think if i was to work a GWP on a rough day and it was pointing and you were just to go up beside it, gun safety off and ready to shoot i would find that less exciting. Like shooting fish in a barrel sort of thing....

[Mickey Finn 2,702]

 

 

 

 

 

It's like crossing a Maserati (wirehair) with a Dumptruck (lab).

 

Nuff said?

Well,Such a non statement that is ! and best left over your side of the water..But as you maybe or not be aware we do send alot of trialing dogs over to your part`s, so some things cant be that bad.

 

Stick in

 

Non statement? It's the truest thing you can say on the matter. Wirehairs are the product of some of the most intricate breeding yet done. They are fine gun dogs for the foot hunter, as well as fine in the water. On top of that, they blood track, dispatch vermin, and guard you while you sleep. What exactly could a Labrador retriever contribute to this breeding?

 

By the way, I meant no offense to anyone.

 

ATB

 

What proper trained working Lab cant do all those things like?

 

Well, if you have all day. Then Maybe.....

 

Obviously never seen a proper Lab'.............just as i thought.... Bring on your GWP's......

 

In my experience labs don't perform well around Wirehairs. The labs seem intimidated, and tend to just plop down on the ground. But whatever you like I guess.

[Lab 10,979]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's like crossing a Maserati (wirehair) with a Dumptruck (lab).

 

Nuff said?

Well,Such a non statement that is ! and best left over your side of the water..But as you maybe or not be aware we do send alot of trialing dogs over to your part`s, so some things cant be that bad.

 

Stick in

 

Non statement? It's the truest thing you can say on the matter. Wirehairs are the product of some of the most intricate breeding yet done. They are fine gun dogs for the foot hunter, as well as fine in the water. On top of that, they blood track, dispatch vermin, and guard you while you sleep. What exactly could a Labrador retriever contribute to this breeding?

 

By the way, I meant no offense to anyone.

 

ATB

 

What proper trained working Lab cant do all those things like?

 

Well, if you have all day. Then Maybe.....

 

Obviously never seen a proper Lab'.............just as i thought.... Bring on your GWP's......

 

In my experience labs don't perform well around Wirehairs. The labs seem intimidated, and tend to just plop down on the ground. But whatever you like I guess.

 

Yes thats another thing...........most off them are vicious b*****ds.........

[camokev64 36]

See what you started Possumtrapper

Tiercel

Ill tell you of my experiences of the HPR breed,1st a picking up experience where a bird shot and with a broken leg planed down and landed way up the bank over a river and behind some bushes ( the line off the fall was visable ).One of the pickers up with his WHP cast is dog which swam the river and upon getting out of the water began to range all over,until eventually and not taking a direct line came upon the wounded bird ( this was a marked retrieve 250 yards ), may i add the dog was basically out of control until it got right side of the wind and located, ( hunting up ? ).Upon locating, the WHP went on point.So To cut the chase, the guy missed nearly 2 drives,having to drive his vehicle to retrieve his dog and the bird..

So no Tiercel, in this case the HPR didnt do what a Retriever could do.It maybe down to poor training as i know very well that there are so called retrievers that would not have even done the distance across the river never mind up the bank..But if we talk about things being even,a well train Lab would of made a better job of the retrieve,than the HPR due to the more direct line a Lab will take.

My second point is that HPR`s and when people talk about "Rough Shooting" this to me can only be possible in a kind of solo situation.Not the Stand one -walk one application !

.Well, beating in pheasant / partridge situations i can see you having your hands full..

But as i have said " i have never used a retriever in the flush mode and never would " If i rough shoot, i shoot over the Spaniel, with a lab at my side for big retrieves,now that is a sight to see !

 

Edited June 26, 2013 by camokev64

[Mickey Finn 2,702]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's like crossing a Maserati (wirehair) with a Dumptruck (lab).

 

Nuff said?

Well,Such a non statement that is ! and best left over your side of the water..But as you maybe or not be aware we do send alot of trialing dogs over to your part`s, so some things cant be that bad.

 

Stick in

 

Non statement? It's the truest thing you can say on the matter. Wirehairs are the product of some of the most intricate breeding yet done. They are fine gun dogs for the foot hunter, as well as fine in the water. On top of that, they blood track, dispatch vermin, and guard you while you sleep. What exactly could a Labrador retriever contribute to this breeding?

 

By the way, I meant no offense to anyone.

 

ATB

 

What proper trained working Lab cant do all those things like?

 

Well, if you have all day. Then Maybe.....

 

Obviously never seen a proper Lab'.............just as i thought.... Bring on your GWP's......

 

In my experience labs don't perform well around Wirehairs. The labs seem intimidated, and tend to just plop down on the ground. But whatever you like I guess.

 

Yes thats another thing...........most off them are vicious b*****ds.........

 

You know, I wouldn't mind hunting with a top notch lab. If it could actually keep up that is....

[Tiercel 6,986]

See what you started Possumtrapper

Tiercel

Ill tell you of my experiences of the HPR breed,1st a picking up experience where a bird shot and with a broken leg planed down and landed way up the bank over a river and behind some bushes ( the line off the fall was visable ).One of the pickers up with his WHP cast is dog which swam the river and upon getting out of the water began to range all over,until eventually and not taking a direct line came upon the wounded bird ( this was a marked retrieve 250 yards ), may i add the dog was basically out of control until it got right side of the wind and located, ( hunting up ? ).Upon locating, the WHP went on point.So To cut the chase, the guy missed nearly 2 drives,having to drive his vehicle to retrieve his dog and the bird..

So no Tiercel, in this case the HPR didnt do what a Retriever could do.It maybe down to poor training as i know very well that there are so called retrievers that would not have even done the distance across the river never mind up the bank..But if we talk about things being even,a well train Lab would of made a better job of the retrieve,than the HPR due to the more direct line a Lab will take.

My second point is that HPR`s and when people talk about "Rough Shooting" this to me can only be possible in a kind of solo situation.Not the Stand one -walk one application !

.Well, beating in pheasant / partridge situations i can see you having your hands full..

But as i have said " i have never used a retriever in the flush mode and never would " If i rough shoot, i shoot over the Spaniel, with a lab at my side for big retrieves,now that is a sight to see !

 

I do find it amusing that all the ney-sayers on this thread are working of supposition having never worked a HPR. You quote one instance where a dog did fail, and class all HPR the same?

 

My opinion of the scenario you stated, was that the dog did fail on the retrieve by coming on point. Your assumtion was that the line of fall was visable, to a human maybe, but and this is just theory, perhaps it was not that visable to the dog being approx 3ft shorter than a human. Your assumtion is that HPR work the same as Labs they do not. In that scenario you quoted I would have done the same except before sending the dog I would have guaged the wind and then cast the dog down wind, one pass would have told the dog where the bird was and he would home in on the bird. Working a HPR is not rocket science it's just a matter of common sense, you know how the dog works so work it to it's strengths.

 

I agree, when I talk about "rough shooting" it is an informal walk around either by yourself or with a few mates, basically looking for anything that is there.

 

Beating is the only discipline that mine failed on, as I stated in an earlier post the need to hunt and range is so strong it is really hard to keep them under control. That said I can only talk about what I have used and seen, so I could not catagorically say that any HPR could not do it.

 

From a lot of negative comment on this thread it does seem as if people are not willing to spend the time to learn about the HPR breeds and just dismiss them as a quirk. Or it could be that some are not willing to admit that there could be better breeds for working than their particular fancy.

 

Last words.

 

 

TC

[Mickey Finn 2,702]

See what you started Possumtrapper

Tiercel

Ill tell you of my experiences of the HPR breed,1st a picking up experience where a bird shot and with a broken leg planed down and landed way up the bank over a river and behind some bushes ( the line off the fall was visable ).One of the pickers up with his WHP cast is dog which swam the river and upon getting out of the water began to range all over,until eventually and not taking a direct line came upon the wounded bird ( this was a marked retrieve 250 yards ), may i add the dog was basically out of control until it got right side of the wind and located, ( hunting up ? ).Upon locating, the WHP went on point.So To cut the chase, the guy missed nearly 2 drives,having to drive his vehicle to retrieve his dog and the bird..

 

Ah well, my wirehair did the same sort of thing during his HZP (fall test) It was kind embarrasing at the time. But, in the end he remembered that I had said fetch and brought me the duck. This was before he was taught to whoa, or hold his point in anyway. So, I think it's just a faze they go through as they mature. Depending on what you end up requiring of your dog. The fall into the groove you set for them.

 

They are a pretty diverse type of dog. I've heard that there are five or six distinct types depending on which of the original German kennels (mother line) they were actually developed in. Some, like mine showing more in the field, and in general hardness. While others show their point late, and do better in the water. In the end, he's turned out to be good at everything I've thrown at him. Including treeing raccoons, and squirrels. Thats why, I don't believe crossing them with a breed outside of their foundation would be beneficial.

 

ATB

[Lab 10,979]

 

 

See what you started Possumtrapper

Tiercel

Ill tell you of my experiences of the HPR breed,1st a picking up experience where a bird shot and with a broken leg planed down and landed way up the bank over a river and behind some bushes ( the line off the fall was visable ).One of the pickers up with his WHP cast is dog which swam the river and upon getting out of the water began to range all over,until eventually and not taking a direct line came upon the wounded bird ( this was a marked retrieve 250 yards ), may i add the dog was basically out of control until it got right side of the wind and located, ( hunting up ? ).Upon locating, the WHP went on point.So To cut the chase, the guy missed nearly 2 drives,having to drive his vehicle to retrieve his dog and the bird..

So no Tiercel, in this case the HPR didnt do what a Retriever could do.It maybe down to poor training as i know very well that there are so called retrievers that would not have even done the distance across the river never mind up the bank..But if we talk about things being even,a well train Lab would of made a better job of the retrieve,than the HPR due to the more direct line a Lab will take.

My second point is that HPR`s and when people talk about "Rough Shooting" this to me can only be possible in a kind of solo situation.Not the Stand one -walk one application !

.Well, beating in pheasant / partridge situations i can see you having your hands full..

But as i have said " i have never used a retriever in the flush mode and never would " If i rough shoot, i shoot over the Spaniel, with a lab at my side for big retrieves,now that is a sight to see !

 

I do find it amusing that all the ney-sayers on this thread are working of supposition having never worked a HPR. You quote one instance where a dog did fail, and class all HPR the same?

 

My opinion of the scenario you stated, was that the dog did fail on the retrieve by coming on point. Your assumtion was that the line of fall was visable, to a human maybe, but and this is just theory, perhaps it was not that visable to the dog being approx 3ft shorter than a human. Your assumtion is that HPR work the same as Labs they do not. In that scenario you quoted I would have done the same except before sending the dog I would have guaged the wind and then cast the dog down wind, one pass would have told the dog where the bird was and he would home in on the bird. Working a HPR is not rocket science it's just a matter of common sense, you know how the dog works so work it to it's strengths.

 

I agree, when I talk about "rough shooting" it is an informal walk around either by yourself or with a few mates, basically looking for anything that is there.

 

Beating is the only discipline that mine failed on, as I stated in an earlier post the need to hunt and range is so strong it is really hard to keep them under control. That said I can only talk about what I have used and seen, so I could not catagorically say that any HPR could not do it.

 

From a lot of negative comment on this thread it does seem as if people are not willing to spend the time to learn about the HPR breeds and just dismiss them as a quirk. Or it could be that some are not willing to admit that there could be better breeds for working than their particular fancy.

 

Last words.

 

 

TC

I can see you think highly off this dog you had but what's bothering me is why was it useless in the beating line? Are you saying you had no control over it. My Big Lab will go out as far as he can see/hear me but I can also work him at close quarters.

Also getting your dog on the right side of the game down wind isn't just something used in GWPs exclusively its very useful for working Labs as well at a high level.

There's plenty dogs out there whether labs, spaniels or pointers that will use there nose and eventually find the bird.... But you've not got all day when picking up and getting your dog onto the scent as quick as possible is a must.

[camokev64 36]

Tc,

I don't think you need to emphasis the importance of wind direction to serious gundog people,whether its at a trial.picking up or shooting over my dogs the first thing I work out before I cast a dog is wind direction and scenting conditions.The only reason its so important to the Hpr breeds is that you can't hold them in the area.

Better than a Lab in its chosen field very much so,I've never stated anything different,but while your on that runner we've been paid,fed and watered.

.

[dee mac 579]

this arguement could go back and forth all day lads the way i see it from my side is that the main place were a hpr excells is rough shooting especially later on in the year when birds are scarce they can hunt a field or bit of cover by coming in wind in there face and if there s a hit of scent then they click into gear the same place with a spaniel has to be quartered throughly at close quarters which means you have the leg work to do as well now every breed mentioned has its good points and excell in the main things they were bred to do ie lab retrieving spaniel thrashing out thick cover etc my brother was out last day of the season last year he s a spaniel fanatic he tramped all day shot a few rabbits no birds at end of the day he met up with two fellow club members one had an english pointer the other two gwps both men had there birds in the bag he says to me come this time of year the pointer comes into its own its ranges which in turn means more ground covered which in turn means higher chance of getting a bird also he says to sit and watch a pointer work far out come on a scent then stalk point and hold to point until told to flush is prob one of the greatest feats of dog breeding man ever acomplished ! ps we beat on a small shoot for a fella and i agree i dont think it s for the pointing breeds the spaniels would make them look silly in big coverts holding lots of birds and for that reason on the beating days i ll be loading the spaniel in the jeep and the gwp can have a day off but come beaters day ill be tipping off for a mooch round the margins and it will be the spaniel having a day off

[dogs-n-natives 1,181]

this arguement could go back and forth all day lads the way i see it from my side is that the main place were a hpr excells is rough shooting especially later on in the year when birds are scarce they can hunt a field or bit of cover by coming in wind in there face and if there s a hit of scent then they click into gear the same place with a spaniel has to be quartered throughly at close quarters which means you have the leg work to do as well now every breed mentioned has its good points and excell in the main things they were bred to do ie lab retrieving spaniel thrashing out thick cover etc my brother was out last day of the season last year he s a spaniel fanatic he tramped all day shot a few rabbits no birds at end of the day he met up with two fellow club members one had an english pointer the other two gwps both men had there birds in the bag he says to me come this time of year the pointer comes into its own its ranges which in turn means more ground covered which in turn means higher chance of getting a bird also he says to sit and watch a pointer work far out come on a scent then stalk point and hold to point until told to flush is prob one of the greatest feats of dog breeding man ever acomplished ! ps we beat on a small shoot for a fella and i agree i dont think it s for the pointing breeds the spaniels would make them look silly in big coverts holding lots of birds and for that reason on the beating days i ll be loading the spaniel in the jeep and the gwp can have a day off but come beaters day ill be tipping off for a mooch round the margins and it will be the spaniel having a day off

Agree with that dee mac. well written.

[STRANGER 948]

this arguement could go back and forth all day lads the way i see it from my side is that the main place were a hpr excells is rough shooting especially later on in the year when birds are scarce they can hunt a field or bit of cover by coming in wind in there face and if there s a hit of scent then they click into gear the same place with a spaniel has to be quartered throughly at close quarters which means you have the leg work to do as well now every breed mentioned has its good points and excell in the main things they were bred to do ie lab retrieving spaniel thrashing out thick cover etc my brother was out last day of the season last year he s a spaniel fanatic he tramped all day shot a few rabbits no birds at end of the day he met up with two fellow club members one had an english pointer the other two gwps both men had there birds in the bag he says to me come this time of year the pointer comes into its own its ranges which in turn means more ground covered which in turn means higher chance of getting a bird also he says to sit and watch a pointer work far out come on a scent then stalk point and hold to point until told to flush is prob one of the greatest feats of dog breeding man ever acomplished ! ps we beat on a small shoot for a fella and i agree i dont think it s for the pointing breeds the spaniels would make them look silly in big coverts holding lots of birds and for that reason on the beating days i ll be loading the spaniel in the jeep and the gwp can have a day off but come beaters day ill be tipping off for a mooch round the margins and it will be the spaniel having a day off

 

Would agree with that

 

They have their place for sure, and IMO it isn't on a commercial pheasant shoot. I would be a nervous wreck using the dogs for stuff like that.

I have seen some great labxpointers work on the moors, on shoot days, but I would not want them for doing a grouse count or in a tight beating line.

Just my opinion.