Take heed, read and learn.....

[Phantom 631]

 

Tony,

 

I'll look into your caution and pm you. My post may not have come across as I intended it. I ment you have 3 rights. 1 to read the codes of practice which govern your stay in custody. 2 to free independent legal advice. 3 to make a phone call. Always ask for the right to legal advice, what I ment to then say was that you don't have to accept it!

 

Regardless of what you think about solicitors miles they can be worth their weight in gold. Don't snuff your nose up at them because of your ideals!

 

Miles I've tried to explain why you feel 'you won the war' against the police via our friendship and text. It doesn't mean that works for everyone. Some of the advice on here would get people in more trouble should they have the lack of real knowledge at their disposal.

 

Let's keep this on topic and let people learn like darryl suggested rather than impart our own views on what everyone should do. It's a dangerous game.

 

Tony also remember that policy and procedure between forces changes but PACE doesn't. Maybe your force has had more firearm offences or serious offences committed with guns so it has a zero tolerance stance on the matter. Other forces may send the rifle to an RFD for which you pay for and have the rifle turned down. I guess unfortunately for you your force won't allow that.

 

ATB

 

Mawders

 

I never recieved a copy of the "Codes of Practise" as I was never "In Custody" (for that to be the case surely I should have been arrested, ie: taken into custody? I did speak to the head of the FireArms Unit, she declared that it was 'Against the Law' to turn the gun down and remove the "Section One" status of the gun after they had chronoed it. she also declared that "No other Force would allow it either", I know now, that her statement is untrue.

What really grates me is the fact that a "Caution" for "Possession" as in both Darryl's case and my own (after all we had both taken possession of what we both belived to be was a sub 12ft/lbs rifle) actually implies that we knew full well when we took possesion,that the rifle's were running hot. There is nothing in our defense that the law would take 'into account' that neither I, Darryl or the person(s) supplying the rifle, knew it was running hot.

 

I know of a gentleman that in the last 12 months purchased a sub 12 - AAS300 from a Legally Registered FireArms Dealer in Hull!

When this particular rifle was chronoed at the range it was running into the 20's ft/lbs

If the gent had been collard after he had taken one single step after PAYING for the rifle, HE would be charged or cautioned with Possession of an illegal fire arm

Yet the RFD who supplied the gun would not have even been spoken to by the police. Yet they supplied the gun. The easy 'Possesion of a section one FA' Where as the "Supply of a Section one" would be harder to prove, after all the RFD had a permit for possession of the gun, where as the customer did not, who can prove that the gun had not been tampered with between the customer/owner recieving it and the seller handing it over?

Sounds a bit sh!tty, but thats how the law works yes?

 

Tony

[ArchieHood 3,692]

I know this is off subject but if you know the law.....

 

[stealthy1 3,964]

I dont know, you'll be dealing in AK47's next

[milegajo 595]

I know this is off subject but if you know the law.....

 

http://youtu.be/g7BQvt3XeAY

 

That vid is hilarious and a damn good illustration of what I'm advocating.

Nice one Archie, I'd forgotten about that.

[Robbie uk 24]

You dont actually have the right to a phone call as such, you have the right to a copy of the codes of practice, a right to have a solicitor present or on the phone and the right to have someone notified that you are there . To phone anyone else will be at the Sgt discretion and depends on the offence in question.

[Mawders 595]

Tony if your friend would have stated he wanted a chrono sheet from RFD stating power the day he picked it up it would have been fine. They both would have seen it was over and thus not accepted it.

 

That sounds like sloppy business practice on behalf of the gunshop. Oh and I disagree with the shop not being spoken to, their lively hoods sway on a fine string of acting within the law. Any proven sloppiness on their behalf has the licensing officers crawling all over them.

 

I think at the end of the day what we all agree on is the laws relating to air rifles need to be changed or improved! Along with that the government needs to standardise what pellet it used to test such an air rifle powers. This takes away what I term 'fishing trip' in testing an air rifle. Even a rifle running at 11ft/lb exactly would go over the limit with the right or wrong pellet!

 

That's what grips my turd the most, standardise the pellet choice! At least we can all then buy that pellet and keep it for chrono'ing our rifles and stay within the law!

 

ATB

 

Mawders.

[milegajo 595]

You dont actually have the right to a phone call as such, you have the right to a copy of the codes of practice, a right to have a solicitor present or on the phone and the right to have someone notified that you are there . To phone anyone else will be at the Sgt discretion and depends on the offence in question.

 

Thats ok, Master Milegajo is your solictior....

 

brrrring brrring

 

"Dammit Robbie! Thats the 5th time this week! Stop buying those damn Career 707s!"

[Phantom 631]

, standardise the pellet choice! At least we can all then buy that pellet and keep it for chrono'ing our rifles and stay within the law!

 

ATB

 

Mawders.

 

If I were religious I's say "AMEN TO THAT!"

 

Indeed that would be the very best and easiest method to implement

 

Unfortunately, it's way too much like "Common Sense" for our legislation writiers toget their heads around

 

For PCP's a 22 Grain Pellet (in .22)

For a Springer, a lighter pellet gives the higher output (Physics is soooo complicated) say 11 grain.

A Co2 tends to like light pellets for accuracy, not sure about power at the muzzle though (in .177 pistols).

 

I totally agree, standardise the weight of a pellet is the single very best way to determing a legal output

 

It would save the law fearing and abiding citizens of the country so much hassle, grief and embaressment and would also take a lot of "Follow up" waste of money for the police forces AND give an absolute deffinition between Legal and Illegal.

 

My S200 runs at 10.15to 10.20 with Crosman Premier Ultra's (fairly light weight) but with the Heavyweight Bisley Magnums at 21 grains, it's putting out 11.49....something! So I round it up to 11.50

It takes care of everything I'm likely to need it for from punching paper, to hunting, to egg and tin can trashing at 100 yards

 

Tony

[Mawders 595]

That sounds ideal tony. My old mans S410 is running at around 10.50 and he wasn't initially to impressed at that but as you stated and I told him at least it SHOULD be within the law given any type of pellet.

[Elliott 436]

Lawyers perpetuate the illusion. Or should I say delusion. Why don't they do something about it? Would you terminate a very lucrative source of income founded on the ignorance of others? Harsh, but true.

 

To illustrate my understanding again, here's the difference.

 

You go out and bash a granny over the head and rob her for her fish and chips, you deserve all that you get. If there are witnesses, you'll have a tough time escaping punishment and damn right too in my opinion.

 

However,

 

You disagree with a UK government bombing the seven bells out of Libyan women and children and protest by witholding your council tax and demand they tell you where your money is going and being spent, if you don't know the game, you could find yourself in prison!!!

 

Or you demand your bank show you two signatures on your mortgage agreement and prove it is a legal contract that binds you and that they didn't produce the money from thin air, you could find the Police aiding the bailiffs as they steal what is rightfully and lawfully yours!!!!!

 

Thats the perversion of our police that i'm highlighting. And yes the two latter scenarios are a downright waste of their time that prevents them otherwise bringing granny bashers to justice. Why do they bother? Revenue. You'll be fined and charged 'costs' etc. It keeps the money flowing to the top. Its their bread and butter.

Your taxes don't pay for the police, despite what your told. Your taxes just cover the interest on the current national debt. So without borrowing more from the so say 'Bank Of England' (its not our bank its a private corporation with private investors who's names are protected by special legislation).

 

But thats a whole other story...

 

Suffice to say there is;

unlawful activity = granny basher

and 'illegal activity' without injured parties = Darryl.

 

Hope that helps explain my rationale.

 

Very interesting Mike and as usual eliquently put, I could listen/read this kind of thing all night - broadens the mind.

 

I think we have all, over time, been taught to accept the 'rules' that govern our country and don't, perhaps through ignorance, feel we have the authority to question.

 

Shame I don't live more local Mike, I'd be very interested to hear more of your experiences and views

 

I suspect Mawders may have some inside knowledge of the law but, with respect, there has to be that many pieces of legislation out there things really are 'as clear as mud.' If we look at the basic principles of 'law enforcement' it may appear that some of our basic rights are being infringed, being persuaded to accept a caution being one of them.

 

Sorry to digress Daryll, I think its awful what has happened to you mate. I hope the caution isn't a lifetime thing too.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Elliott

[milegajo 595]

Lawyers perpetuate the illusion. Or should I say delusion. Why don't they do something about it? Would you terminate a very lucrative source of income founded on the ignorance of others? Harsh, but true.

 

To illustrate my understanding again, here's the difference.

 

You go out and bash a granny over the head and rob her for her fish and chips, you deserve all that you get. If there are witnesses, you'll have a tough time escaping punishment and damn right too in my opinion.

 

However,

 

You disagree with a UK government bombing the seven bells out of Libyan women and children and protest by witholding your council tax and demand they tell you where your money is going and being spent, if you don't know the game, you could find yourself in prison!!!

 

Or you demand your bank show you two signatures on your mortgage agreement and prove it is a legal contract that binds you and that they didn't produce the money from thin air, you could find the Police aiding the bailiffs as they steal what is rightfully and lawfully yours!!!!!

 

Thats the perversion of our police that i'm highlighting. And yes the two latter scenarios are a downright waste of their time that prevents them otherwise bringing granny bashers to justice. Why do they bother? Revenue. You'll be fined and charged 'costs' etc. It keeps the money flowing to the top. Its their bread and butter.

Your taxes don't pay for the police, despite what your told. Your taxes just cover the interest on the current national debt. So without borrowing more from the so say 'Bank Of England' (its not our bank its a private corporation with private investors who's names are protected by special legislation).

 

But thats a whole other story...

 

Suffice to say there is;

unlawful activity = granny basher

and 'illegal activity' without injured parties = Darryl.

 

Hope that helps explain my rationale.

 

Very interesting Mike and as usual eliquently put, I could listen/read this kind of thing all night - broadens the mind.

 

I think we have all, over time, been taught to accept the 'rules' that govern our country and don't, perhaps through ignorance, feel we have the authority to question.

 

Shame I don't live more local Mike, I'd be very interested to hear more of your experiences and views

 

I suspect Mawders may have some inside knowledge of the law but, with respect, there has to be that many pieces of legislation out there things really are 'as clear as mud.' If we look at the basic principles of 'law enforcement' it may appear that some of our basic rights are being infringed, being persuaded to accept a caution being one of them.

 

Sorry to digress Daryll, I think its awful what has happened to you mate. I hope the caution isn't a lifetime thing too.

 

Would be an honour Elliott, as a poor substitute I'd be happy to point to the material ive researched most of which is available freely online.

 

I feel that underlying the plight of Darryl and others, is the irksome feeling that this agro is needless and a distraction from living.

 

No need nor point in villification or blame, just a bit of education.

[millybot 3]

tthanks for posting darrel going to check mine now just shows you what members of the public are like about guns you can't be too careful not like the old days when you threw your rifle into a cut off jeans leg and away to the tip for a bit of rat shooting keep safe mate we all know what a great lad you are

millybot

ps the hob i got off you last year is great

 

tested them springer was just a bit too close so cut a coil off ground it down and polished it now 777 fps and 11 . 1 ftlbs that's enough for me

millybot

Edited August 8, 2012 by millybot

[bigmac 97kt 13,730]

hi mate vislauk told me about it yesterday and we tested our guns with the same whait pellets apart from the 12gr pellets andup to now there under the limit will get some 12gr to day and test them with them so sorry to here what happend and hope you and your family are ok now bud i got a brand new 97k about two years a go brand new from a local gun shop( you will now the one darrel )it was strait from the factory to the shop then to me and when it was tested it was putting out 13and a half and that was with only three kinds of pellets the shop owner could not bileave it and promply put the gun right for me so there you have it lads even new guns shud be tested dont trust eny one atbmac

[secretagentmole 1,701]

Tony if your friend would have stated he wanted a chrono sheet from RFD stating power the day he picked it up it would have been fine. They both would have seen it was over and thus not accepted it.

 

That sounds like sloppy business practice on behalf of the gunshop. Oh and I disagree with the shop not being spoken to, their lively hoods sway on a fine string of acting within the law. Any proven sloppiness on their behalf has the licensing officers crawling all over them.

 

I think at the end of the day what we all agree on is the laws relating to air rifles need to be changed or improved! Along with that the government needs to standardise what pellet it used to test such an air rifle powers. This takes away what I term 'fishing trip' in testing an air rifle. Even a rifle running at 11ft/lb exactly would go over the limit with the right or wrong pellet!

 

That's what grips my turd the most, standardise the pellet choice! At least we can all then buy that pellet and keep it for chrono'ing our rifles and stay within the law!

 

ATB

 

Mawders.

 

When the other half picked up her used HW100 from Redbeck last year they chrono tested it, they found out it was sending out odd ones down the range at 12.3 fpe, they found it had been set up to average about 11.8-11.9, they were not happy supplying it in that condition and made sure it was running at 11.4, they did not want to have the tarnish of supplying a hot gun against their reputation. Top lads!

[secretagentmole 1,701]

, standardise the pellet choice! At least we can all then buy that pellet and keep it for chrono'ing our rifles and stay within the law!

 

ATB

 

Mawders.

 

If I were religious I's say "AMEN TO THAT!"

 

Indeed that would be the very best and easiest method to implement

 

Unfortunately, it's way too much like "Common Sense" for our legislation writiers toget their heads around

 

For PCP's a 22 Grain Pellet (in .22)

For a Springer, a lighter pellet gives the higher output (Physics is soooo complicated) say 11 grain.

A Co2 tends to like light pellets for accuracy, not sure about power at the muzzle though (in .177 pistols).

 

I totally agree, standardise the weight of a pellet is the single very best way to determing a legal output

 

It would save the law fearing and abiding citizens of the country so much hassle, grief and embaressment and would also take a lot of "Follow up" waste of money for the police forces AND give an absolute deffinition between Legal and Illegal.

 

My S200 runs at 10.15to 10.20 with Crosman Premier Ultra's (fairly light weight) but with the Heavyweight Bisley Magnums at 21 grains, it's putting out 11.49....something! So I round it up to 11.50

It takes care of everything I'm likely to need it for from punching paper, to hunting, to egg and tin can trashing at 100 yards

 

Tony

 

Not only standardize the pellet, standardize the equipment to be used and the test procedure, anybody with an HW100 may not be aware that when that dial slips to under 90 bar, the gun can spit the odd pellet out well above the legal maximum of 12 foot pounds! We don't shoot it when it get's that low, we top up, but it can be made to fire at well over power simply by having less air in!

 

A standard procedure will define testing methodology, ie take gun from 20 bar under maximum fill to 10 bar over refill, use standard pellet, say Bisley Magnums, use standard and CALIBRATED test equipment, say a Skan, test in a standard atmosphere, say 20 degrees celcius, repeat test three times and average results.

 

Note, should it be requested then the defendant should be allowed to witness the testing alongside an expert that they can ask to act as an expert witness!

 

Any faults in documentation supplied by the police or the testing laboratory will automatically invalidate and exonerate the defendant (in Tony's case saying the gun was the wrong calibre)!