Whats peoples thoughts on unmated jills.

[Leeview 787]

They're not long out of season put the money up and I'll have them tested

Y.I.S Leeview

Out of season is of no use apart from a 'control' blood sample.

 

OK another one of your theories their blood count is only affected while they're in season and returns to normal levels miracuriously as soon as they come out of season in their own time

Y.I.S Leeview

[ferret100 47]

They're not long out of season put the money up and I'll have them tested

Y.I.S Leeview

Out of season is of no use apart from a 'control' blood sample.

 

OK another one of your theories their blood count is only affected while they're in season and returns to normal levels miracuriously as soon as they come out of season in their own time

Y.I.S Leeview

Cell counts can be affected by many other things, at any time of year. As the jills are no longer in season then obviously oestrogen levels will have decreased and/or factors associated with oestrogen toxicity. So the cell count would now be random instead of conclusively being associated with oestrogen issues and not due to any other reason. Pretty obvious.....

[Leeview 787]

Just as a matter of interest, and wont be dragged into any arguement, i'd like to ask what the test results would show? Would they conclusivley reveal that for deffo a ferret was suffering any ill effects due to not being mated, Or just increased levels of this and that, which could cause harm through that and this? See my point? theres a lot of talk about it could and does, but not many folk can tell you.anything but hype, and rarely do. (one post told of a few symptoms, but do they prove it is due to this?).

 

Anyway, being safe never hurt anyone, so the measures taken cannot be ignored, put the snipped hob over them, or get the jab you will be safe then.

 

One idea though, could the weaker animals that are suffering these fatal afflictions be this way down to inbreeding? Most folks have not got a clue as to where the bloodline came from, (Myself included) and know for certain a lot of this goes on. Just my thoughts for the evening.

Yes, the results would conclusively show that a jill left in season has ill effects on her health. With any illness, disease or condition, certain abnormalites and/or clinical signs are presented, these are then confirmed via the relevant methods, and the appropriate treatment given at that time. The extent of test/examination findings of a jill left in season would depend on how long she has been left in that state. The blood sample analysis of a jill left in season would highlight corresponding abnormal cell counts, thus confirming clinical symptoms and the condition presented. The cell count would include red blood cell, white blood cell and blood platelets, these would prove to be outside normal parameters, confirming prolonged oestrus typical in induced ovulators, as ferrets are, has ill effects.

 

Increased daylight, or Photoperiod triggers oestrus in a jill. In order to be able to come into season, high levels of oestrogen must be produced, this hormone causes all the signs of 'heat'. Without high levels of oestrogen a jill would not come into season or be able to breed. A jill won't ovulate until she is mated and the increased light in the summer months continue to trigger the oestrus cycle, so oestrogen levels remain very high. Over time, high levels of oestrogen cause oestrogen toxicity, which damages bone marrow. Bone marrow is responsible for producing red blood cells (RBC), white blood cells (WBC) and blood platelets, so if the bone marrow is damaged due to toxic levels of oestrogen, then it cannot produce enough cells. Low RBC is what causes anemia, low WBC causes immunity supression, predisposing infections and low blood platelets can cause spontaneous internal bleeding. Once the bone marrow is damaged to a certain extent, there aren't enough vital cells produced to allow the body to function and so death is inevitable. How long a jill can remain in season and not suffer from oestrogen toxicity is not quantified, but once it happens, it's game over really and a pretty horrific way to go.

 

So these illness's you mention are only while the jills in season and there are no signs of these illness's when they come out of season

Y.I.S Leeview

[ferret100 47]

Just as a matter of interest, and wont be dragged into any arguement, i'd like to ask what the test results would show? Would they conclusivley reveal that for deffo a ferret was suffering any ill effects due to not being mated, Or just increased levels of this and that, which could cause harm through that and this? See my point? theres a lot of talk about it could and does, but not many folk can tell you.anything but hype, and rarely do. (one post told of a few symptoms, but do they prove it is due to this?).

 

Anyway, being safe never hurt anyone, so the measures taken cannot be ignored, put the snipped hob over them, or get the jab you will be safe then.

 

One idea though, could the weaker animals that are suffering these fatal afflictions be this way down to inbreeding? Most folks have not got a clue as to where the bloodline came from, (Myself included) and know for certain a lot of this goes on. Just my thoughts for the evening.

Yes, the results would conclusively show that a jill left in season has ill effects on her health. With any illness, disease or condition, certain abnormalites and/or clinical signs are presented, these are then confirmed via the relevant methods, and the appropriate treatment given at that time. The extent of test/examination findings of a jill left in season would depend on how long she has been left in that state. The blood sample analysis of a jill left in season would highlight corresponding abnormal cell counts, thus confirming clinical symptoms and the condition presented. The cell count would include red blood cell, white blood cell and blood platelets, these would prove to be outside normal parameters, confirming prolonged oestrus typical in induced ovulators, as ferrets are, has ill effects.

 

Increased daylight, or Photoperiod triggers oestrus in a jill. In order to be able to come into season, high levels of oestrogen must be produced, this hormone causes all the signs of 'heat'. Without high levels of oestrogen a jill would not come into season or be able to breed. A jill won't ovulate until she is mated and the increased light in the summer months continue to trigger the oestrus cycle, so oestrogen levels remain very high. Over time, high levels of oestrogen cause oestrogen toxicity, which damages bone marrow. Bone marrow is responsible for producing red blood cells (RBC), white blood cells (WBC) and blood platelets, so if the bone marrow is damaged due to toxic levels of oestrogen, then it cannot produce enough cells. Low RBC is what causes anemia, low WBC causes immunity supression, predisposing infections and low blood platelets can cause spontaneous internal bleeding. Once the bone marrow is damaged to a certain extent, there aren't enough vital cells produced to allow the body to function and so death is inevitable. How long a jill can remain in season and not suffer from oestrogen toxicity is not quantified, but once it happens, it's game over really and a pretty horrific way to go.

 

So these illness's you mention are only while the jills in season and there are no signs of these illness's when they come out of season

Y.I.S Leeview

No, that's not what I'm saying and if you read things properly, you could answer your own question, yet again. Tell you what, you don't you ring any vet in the country, knowledgable about ferrets, and ask them your questions. Tell them you continiously leave your jills in season and have done for the last 50 years and never had a problem, you believe taking jills out of season is unneccessary and all this talk about it being bad for their health is 'theory'.

[ferret100 47]

They're not long out of season put the money up and I'll have them tested

Y.I.S Leeview

Out of season is of no use apart from a 'control' blood sample.

why no use , the ferret is still alive ,ahh right out of season low levels in blood = ferret survived in season high levels ferret at risk lol i think we all know that by now even before you came on banging your drum , give it a rest ffs

You are too thick to explain it to, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.

[Leeview 787]

Just as a matter of interest, and wont be dragged into any arguement, i'd like to ask what the test results would show? Would they conclusivley reveal that for deffo a ferret was suffering any ill effects due to not being mated, Or just increased levels of this and that, which could cause harm through that and this? See my point? theres a lot of talk about it could and does, but not many folk can tell you.anything but hype, and rarely do. (one post told of a few symptoms, but do they prove it is due to this?).

 

Anyway, being safe never hurt anyone, so the measures taken cannot be ignored, put the snipped hob over them, or get the jab you will be safe then.

 

One idea though, could the weaker animals that are suffering these fatal afflictions be this way down to inbreeding? Most folks have not got a clue as to where the bloodline came from, (Myself included) and know for certain a lot of this goes on. Just my thoughts for the evening.

Yes, the results would conclusively show that a jill left in season has ill effects on her health. With any illness, disease or condition, certain abnormalites and/or clinical signs are presented, these are then confirmed via the relevant methods, and the appropriate treatment given at that time. The extent of test/examination findings of a jill left in season would depend on how long she has been left in that state. The blood sample analysis of a jill left in season would highlight corresponding abnormal cell counts, thus confirming clinical symptoms and the condition presented. The cell count would include red blood cell, white blood cell and blood platelets, these would prove to be outside normal parameters, confirming prolonged oestrus typical in induced ovulators, as ferrets are, has ill effects.

 

Increased daylight, or Photoperiod triggers oestrus in a jill. In order to be able to come into season, high levels of oestrogen must be produced, this hormone causes all the signs of 'heat'. Without high levels of oestrogen a jill would not come into season or be able to breed. A jill won't ovulate until she is mated and the increased light in the summer months continue to trigger the oestrus cycle, so oestrogen levels remain very high. Over time, high levels of oestrogen cause oestrogen toxicity, which damages bone marrow. Bone marrow is responsible for producing red blood cells (RBC), white blood cells (WBC) and blood platelets, so if the bone marrow is damaged due to toxic levels of oestrogen, then it cannot produce enough cells. Low RBC is what causes anemia, low WBC causes immunity supression, predisposing infections and low blood platelets can cause spontaneous internal bleeding. Once the bone marrow is damaged to a certain extent, there aren't enough vital cells produced to allow the body to function and so death is inevitable. How long a jill can remain in season and not suffer from oestrogen toxicity is not quantified, but once it happens, it's game over really and a pretty horrific way to go.

 

So these illness's you mention are only while the jills in season and there are no signs of these illness's when they come out of season

Y.I.S Leeview

No, that's not what I'm saying and if you read things properly, you could answer your own question, yet again.

well thats your "quote" and then contradict yourself

Tell you what why don't you ring any vet in the country, knowledgable about ferrets, and ask them your questions.

Vets have a vested interest in money thats why early on I questioned you about booster jabs? where do these vets get their knowledge from? Internet, wikipaedia

Tell them you continiously leave your jills in season and have done for the last 50 years and never had a problem, you believe taking jills out of season is unneccessary and all this talk about it being bad for their health is 'theory'.

Based on MY experiences and other members agree with the same conclusions Tell me a vet that has had ferrets over 50yrs 365days a year not sees a ferret once in a blue moon and I'll ring him

Y.I.S Leeview

[Malt 379]

They're not long out of season put the money up and I'll have them tested

Y.I.S Leeview

Out of season is of no use apart from a 'control' blood sample.

why no use , the ferret is still alive ,ahh right out of season low levels in blood = ferret survived in season high levels ferret at risk lol i think we all know that by now even before you came on banging your drum , give it a rest ffs

You are too thick to explain it to, otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.

 

No need for that. I appreciate you feel the need to fight your corner in this debate, but it brings the whole thing down and reflects badly on you when you feel you have to resort to insulting a persons intelligence...

[Kay 3,709]

I have found here that any jills i have never come into season before the end of March , & when they do come in, I find they tend not to be fully swollen sometimes untill the end of may , I put this down to them being kept in the shadiest part of my garden, I only get what you can call decent light in the middle of the summer , so i never rush out & get a jill jabbed the day after she has shown signs of swelling

 

they come in & go out , I dont find & have never found a jill to have become fully swollen & stay fully swollen my own finding are they fluctuate sometimes to the point of not actually being swollen at all , then a few days later they slightly swell again , so sometimes i have left jills for a good 6 to 8 weeks with absolutely no ill effects

 

i can only think its the natural light that dictates the swelling , so I assume if you are subjecting jills to un natural levels of light then yes theres a higher risk of them staying in full blown season

 

Any jills that have been jabbed have never had to be jabbed a second time in that season , i dont think you can despute the fact that no people dont have ferrets dropping dead the day after they come into season

 

Maybe some ferrets are simply predisposed to the condition & others arnt , like lots of other ferret conditions

[Leeview 787]

OK Kay some fair points, as for the ferrets being in a shaded area in the garden they will still be able to tell daylight from darkness even in the shade

Y.I.S Leeview

[ferret100 47]

Just as a matter of interest, and wont be dragged into any arguement, i'd like to ask what the test results would show? Would they conclusivley reveal that for deffo a ferret was suffering any ill effects due to not being mated, Or just increased levels of this and that, which could cause harm through that and this? See my point? theres a lot of talk about it could and does, but not many folk can tell you.anything but hype, and rarely do. (one post told of a few symptoms, but do they prove it is due to this?).

 

Anyway, being safe never hurt anyone, so the measures taken cannot be ignored, put the snipped hob over them, or get the jab you will be safe then.

 

One idea though, could the weaker animals that are suffering these fatal afflictions be this way down to inbreeding? Most folks have not got a clue as to where the bloodline came from, (Myself included) and know for certain a lot of this goes on. Just my thoughts for the evening.

Yes, the results would conclusively show that a jill left in season has ill effects on her health. With any illness, disease or condition, certain abnormalites and/or clinical signs are presented, these are then confirmed via the relevant methods, and the appropriate treatment given at that time. The extent of test/examination findings of a jill left in season would depend on how long she has been left in that state. The blood sample analysis of a jill left in season would highlight corresponding abnormal cell counts, thus confirming clinical symptoms and the condition presented. The cell count would include red blood cell, white blood cell and blood platelets, these would prove to be outside normal parameters, confirming prolonged oestrus typical in induced ovulators, as ferrets are, has ill effects.

 

Increased daylight, or Photoperiod triggers oestrus in a jill. In order to be able to come into season, high levels of oestrogen must be produced, this hormone causes all the signs of 'heat'. Without high levels of oestrogen a jill would not come into season or be able to breed. A jill won't ovulate until she is mated and the increased light in the summer months continue to trigger the oestrus cycle, so oestrogen levels remain very high. Over time, high levels of oestrogen cause oestrogen toxicity, which damages bone marrow. Bone marrow is responsible for producing red blood cells (RBC), white blood cells (WBC) and blood platelets, so if the bone marrow is damaged due to toxic levels of oestrogen, then it cannot produce enough cells. Low RBC is what causes anemia, low WBC causes immunity supression, predisposing infections and low blood platelets can cause spontaneous internal bleeding. Once the bone marrow is damaged to a certain extent, there aren't enough vital cells produced to allow the body to function and so death is inevitable. How long a jill can remain in season and not suffer from oestrogen toxicity is not quantified, but once it happens, it's game over really and a pretty horrific way to go.

 

So these illness's you mention are only while the jills in season and there are no signs of these illness's when they come out of season

Y.I.S Leeview

No, that's not what I'm saying and if you read things properly, you could answer your own question, yet again.

well thats your "quote" and then contradict yourself

Tell you what why don't you ring any vet in the country, knowledgable about ferrets, and ask them your questions.

Vets have a vested interest in money thats why early on I questioned you about booster jabs? where do these vets get their knowledge from? Internet, wikipaedia

Tell them you continiously leave your jills in season and have done for the last 50 years and never had a problem, you believe taking jills out of season is unneccessary and all this talk about it being bad for their health is 'theory'.

Based on MY experiences and other members agree with the same conclusions Tell me a vet that has had ferrets over 50yrs 365days a year not sees a ferret once in a blue moon and I'll ring him

Y.I.S Leeview

So you haven't asked a vet of your choice yet? Ask them these silly questions...see what they say....

Edited September 21, 2011 by ferret100

[Leeview 787]

Just as a matter of interest, and wont be dragged into any arguement, i'd like to ask what the test results would show? Would they conclusivley reveal that for deffo a ferret was suffering any ill effects due to not being mated, Or just increased levels of this and that, which could cause harm through that and this? See my point? theres a lot of talk about it could and does, but not many folk can tell you.anything but hype, and rarely do. (one post told of a few symptoms, but do they prove it is due to this?).

 

Anyway, being safe never hurt anyone, so the measures taken cannot be ignored, put the snipped hob over them, or get the jab you will be safe then.

 

One idea though, could the weaker animals that are suffering these fatal afflictions be this way down to inbreeding? Most folks have not got a clue as to where the bloodline came from, (Myself included) and know for certain a lot of this goes on. Just my thoughts for the evening.

Yes, the results would conclusively show that a jill left in season has ill effects on her health. With any illness, disease or condition, certain abnormalites and/or clinical signs are presented, these are then confirmed via the relevant methods, and the appropriate treatment given at that time. The extent of test/examination findings of a jill left in season would depend on how long she has been left in that state. The blood sample analysis of a jill left in season would highlight corresponding abnormal cell counts, thus confirming clinical symptoms and the condition presented. The cell count would include red blood cell, white blood cell and blood platelets, these would prove to be outside normal parameters, confirming prolonged oestrus typical in induced ovulators, as ferrets are, has ill effects.

 

Increased daylight, or Photoperiod triggers oestrus in a jill. In order to be able to come into season, high levels of oestrogen must be produced, this hormone causes all the signs of 'heat'. Without high levels of oestrogen a jill would not come into season or be able to breed. A jill won't ovulate until she is mated and the increased light in the summer months continue to trigger the oestrus cycle, so oestrogen levels remain very high. Over time, high levels of oestrogen cause oestrogen toxicity, which damages bone marrow. Bone marrow is responsible for producing red blood cells (RBC), white blood cells (WBC) and blood platelets, so if the bone marrow is damaged due to toxic levels of oestrogen, then it cannot produce enough cells. Low RBC is what causes anemia, low WBC causes immunity supression, predisposing infections and low blood platelets can cause spontaneous internal bleeding. Once the bone marrow is damaged to a certain extent, there aren't enough vital cells produced to allow the body to function and so death is inevitable. How long a jill can remain in season and not suffer from oestrogen toxicity is not quantified, but once it happens, it's game over really and a pretty horrific way to go.

 

So these illness's you mention are only while the jills in season and there are no signs of these illness's when they come out of season

Y.I.S Leeview

No, that's not what I'm saying and if you read things properly, you could answer your own question, yet again.

well thats your "quote" and then contradict yourself

Tell you what why don't you ring any vet in the country, knowledgable about ferrets, and ask them your questions.

Vets have a vested interest in money thats why early on I questioned you about booster jabs? where do these vets get their knowledge from? Internet, wikipaedia

Tell them you continiously leave your jills in season and have done for the last 50 years and never had a problem, you believe taking jills out of season is unneccessary and all this talk about it being bad for their health is 'theory'.

Based on MY experiences and other members agree with the same conclusions Tell me a vet that has had ferrets over 50yrs 365days a year not sees a ferret once in a blue moon and I'll ring him

Y.I.S Leeview

So you haven't asked a vet of your choice yet? Ask them these silly questions...see what they say....

Candy a vet of my choice would nt be to your liking you post links to american sites,your no longer in the states your in the UK we work our ferrets feed them meat not kibble, we understand how they kill their prey, I dont go running to a vets having them injected willy nilly because we have a very healthy gene pool here in our country you linked to Aleutians disease in the states WHY? Waardenbergs is rife in the states too How many members on here have had a ferret with either of these conditions? I've asked before of cases in the UK and got not one answer positive or negative

So back on topic you have no experience of having a jill left in season as you believe what you have read MIGHT happen ?YES or NO will do

I and several other members have disproved your reading matter to be incorrect by leaving jills in season without any of these MIGHT happen scenarios YES and typically you cant handle it that you have read something that is factually not true

Typical american know it all

Y.I.S Leeview

[ferret100 47]

Just as a matter of interest, and wont be dragged into any arguement, i'd like to ask what the test results would show? Would they conclusivley reveal that for deffo a ferret was suffering any ill effects due to not being mated, Or just increased levels of this and that, which could cause harm through that and this? See my point? theres a lot of talk about it could and does, but not many folk can tell you.anything but hype, and rarely do. (one post told of a few symptoms, but do they prove it is due to this?).

 

Anyway, being safe never hurt anyone, so the measures taken cannot be ignored, put the snipped hob over them, or get the jab you will be safe then.

 

One idea though, could the weaker animals that are suffering these fatal afflictions be this way down to inbreeding? Most folks have not got a clue as to where the bloodline came from, (Myself included) and know for certain a lot of this goes on. Just my thoughts for the evening.

Yes, the results would conclusively show that a jill left in season has ill effects on her health. With any illness, disease or condition, certain abnormalites and/or clinical signs are presented, these are then confirmed via the relevant methods, and the appropriate treatment given at that time. The extent of test/examination findings of a jill left in season would depend on how long she has been left in that state. The blood sample analysis of a jill left in season would highlight corresponding abnormal cell counts, thus confirming clinical symptoms and the condition presented. The cell count would include red blood cell, white blood cell and blood platelets, these would prove to be outside normal parameters, confirming prolonged oestrus typical in induced ovulators, as ferrets are, has ill effects.

 

Increased daylight, or Photoperiod triggers oestrus in a jill. In order to be able to come into season, high levels of oestrogen must be produced, this hormone causes all the signs of 'heat'. Without high levels of oestrogen a jill would not come into season or be able to breed. A jill won't ovulate until she is mated and the increased light in the summer months continue to trigger the oestrus cycle, so oestrogen levels remain very high. Over time, high levels of oestrogen cause oestrogen toxicity, which damages bone marrow. Bone marrow is responsible for producing red blood cells (RBC), white blood cells (WBC) and blood platelets, so if the bone marrow is damaged due to toxic levels of oestrogen, then it cannot produce enough cells. Low RBC is what causes anemia, low WBC causes immunity supression, predisposing infections and low blood platelets can cause spontaneous internal bleeding. Once the bone marrow is damaged to a certain extent, there aren't enough vital cells produced to allow the body to function and so death is inevitable. How long a jill can remain in season and not suffer from oestrogen toxicity is not quantified, but once it happens, it's game over really and a pretty horrific way to go.

 

So these illness's you mention are only while the jills in season and there are no signs of these illness's when they come out of season

Y.I.S Leeview

No, that's not what I'm saying and if you read things properly, you could answer your own question, yet again.

well thats your "quote" and then contradict yourself

Tell you what why don't you ring any vet in the country, knowledgable about ferrets, and ask them your questions.

Vets have a vested interest in money thats why early on I questioned you about booster jabs? where do these vets get their knowledge from? Internet, wikipaedia

Tell them you continiously leave your jills in season and have done for the last 50 years and never had a problem, you believe taking jills out of season is unneccessary and all this talk about it being bad for their health is 'theory'.

Based on MY experiences and other members agree with the same conclusions Tell me a vet that has had ferrets over 50yrs 365days a year not sees a ferret once in a blue moon and I'll ring him

Y.I.S Leeview

So you haven't asked a vet of your choice yet? Ask them these silly questions...see what they say....

Candy a vet of my choice would nt be to your liking you post links to american sites,your no longer in the states your in the UK we work our ferrets feed them meat not kibble, we understand how they kill their prey, I dont go running to a vets having them injected willy nilly because we have a very healthy gene pool here in our country you linked to Aleutians disease in the states WHY? Waardenbergs is rife in the states too How many members on here have had a ferret with either of these conditions? I've asked before of cases in the UK and got not one answer positive or negative

So back on topic you have no experience of having a jill left in season as you believe what you have read MIGHT happen ?YES or NO will do

I and several other members have disproved your reading matter to be incorrect by leaving jills in season without any of these MIGHT happen scenarios YES and typically you cant handle it that you have read something that is factually not true

Typical american know it all

Y.I.S Leeview

You're waffling again. Call a competent vet. Btw, I'm from UK, unlucky.

[Leeview 787]

http://www.angoraferret.co.uk/about/default.html

Not waffling at all, Call a competent vet, and then what tell them all my jills have been left in season and not one of them has died or been ill Dont want to be wasting my time or the vets

Now this link is interesting to say the least HYPOCRISY at its best saying how members should look after their ferrets healthwise and your breeding for big bucks and deciding on what is bred from to what

I'll leave members to make their own minds up about candy before I really blow it

A good reason why we need a proper mod in this section to stop posts being put up by deluded members that dont know what they're talking about

Y.I.S Leeview

[ferret100 47]

http://www.angorafer...ut/default.html

Not waffling at all, Call a competent vet, and then what tell them all my jills have been left in season and not one of them has died or been ill Dont want to be wasting my time or the vets

Now this link is interesting to say the least HYPOCRISY at its best saying how members should look after their ferrets healthwise and your breeding for big bucks and deciding on what is bred from to what

I'll leave members to make their own minds up about candy before I really blow it

A good reason why we need a proper mod in this section to stop posts being put up by deluded members that dont know what they're talking about

Y.I.S Leeview

A competent vet would not believe you, fact. The only time you are wasting is your jills time. Your opinion is hearsay and means nothing compared to documented fact. Unless you can give hard evidence other than 'in my experience' regarding oestrogen toxicity, then you are waffling. My patience with you on this matter is spent.

[Leeview 787]

http://www.angorafer...ut/default.html

Not waffling at all, Call a competent vet, and then what tell them all my jills have been left in season and not one of them has died or been ill Dont want to be wasting my time or the vets

Now this link is interesting to say the least HYPOCRISY at its best saying how members should look after their ferrets healthwise and your breeding for big bucks and deciding on what is bred from to what

I'll leave members to make their own minds up about candy before I really blow it

A good reason why we need a proper mod in this section to stop posts being put up by deluded members that dont know what they're talking about

Y.I.S Leeview

A competent vet would not believe you, fact.

Why would nt a vet believe me?

The only time you are wasting is your jills time.

My ferrets including an 11th season jill are fit, healthy and working

Your opinion is hearsay and means nothing compared to documented fact.

My opinion is not hearsay its experience that proves documented facts are flawed

Unless you can give hard evidence other than 'in my experience' regarding oestrogen toxicity, then you are waffling. My patience with you on this matter is spent.

Well get your syndicate to put up the money and I'll have them tested should be able to get the tests done for what you charge for an angora kit