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Yes I do agree with legal pest control. But with this thread as was the same in the last one, Keepers never shoots raptors, do they? What is a load of bull! I have already stated in the last thread, I shoot, fish, ferret, fly hawks and work dogs. I know and understand what goes on but that doesn't mean to say that I am comfortable with it.....

 

So its just game shoots you have a problem with and therefore the ethics of controlling pests for the purposes of protecting game birds? Im just trying to get to the root of your argument.

 

I've read the 'non native' argument a few times here, does that mean it is 'ok' to run a game shoot that only shoots grey partridge and hares and hence shoot spars and buzzards to stop over predation? Or is running a commercial shoot unethical no matter the quarry?

 

Those of you that are anti bop population management, can I ask if you control any native pest species on your permissions to support your game and other wildlife (song birds etc)?

 

Are we expected to tell the farmer that is loosing lambs that because the fox has a hard time living in the wild and is native that he is to tollerate the lamb losses?

 

:thumbs:

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I saw on the telly the other day a load of lurcher boys get done for coursing hares but the lurcher lads know this never happens as if people are fcuking stupid,they shouldnt be doing it regardless.th

Well mate.....i'm only 30 but been around pheasants since i could walk and i've only ever 'seen' a Buzzard take a poult once in my life. I have however seen buzzards loads of tiomes leave the pen when

WOW thanks for that insight habitat loss,modern farming and increased predation have obviously had no bearing on lapwing decline it's cause they look like magpies :blink:

Artic gun I had done with this thread but your post was reasonable and raised a sensible question regarding finances on a shoot so I will do a quick resume of costs but it will be far from extensive I will base it on a shoot which has 10 200 bird days for 8 guns and with an annual return of 30% charging £25 per bird.

 

6000 poults @ 3.40 £20400

20t pellets @300 per T £6000

20t wheat @160 per T £3200

Keepers wages £16000

keepers house vehicle bills etc £10000

Cover crops inc rent £7000

15 beatersx10 days @25 per beater £3750

 

total £66350

 

 

 

total return from shoots £50000

 

 

bear in mind that I have come no where near to listing all the bills there is fuel,vets, pen repairs the list goes on.

Edited by danw
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Artic gun I had done with this thread but your post was reasonable and raised a sensible question regarding finances on a shoot so I will do a quick resume of costs but it will be far from extensive I will base it on a shoot which has 10 200 bird days for 8 guns and with an annual return of 30% charging £25 per bird.

 

6000 poults @ 3.40 £20400

20t pellets @300 per T £6000

20t wheat @160 per T £3200

Keepers wages £16000

keepers house vehicle bills etc £10000

Cover crops inc rent £7000

beaters 15x10 days £3750

 

total £66350

 

 

 

total return from shoots £50000

 

 

bear in mind that I have come no where near to listing all the bills there is fuel,vets, pen repairs the list goes on.

f**k the Buzzards......where are you get a tonne of pellets for £300......its £500 up here pretty much.......... :icon_eek::D

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Artic gun I had done with this thread but your post was reasonable and raised a sensible question regarding finances on a shoot so I will do a quick resume of costs but it will be far from extensive I will base it on a shoot which has 10 200 bird days for 8 guns and with an annual return of 30% charging £25 per bird.

 

6000 poults @ 3.40 £20400

20t pellets @300 per T £6000

20t wheat @160 per T £3200

Keepers wages £16000

keepers house vehicle bills etc £10000

Cover crops inc rent £7000

beaters 15x10 days £3750

 

total £66350

 

 

 

total return from shoots £50000

 

 

bear in mind that I have come no where near to listing all the bills there is fuel,vets, pen repairs the list goes on.

f**k the Buzzards......where are you get a tonne of pellets for £300......its £500 up here pretty much.......... :icon_eek::D

 

 

was only an example you could add 70 per ton for flubenvet some for aurofac and some for the avitec but I think the general idea is demonstrated :thumbs: edited to say also some to the vet for the script for the medicated feed

Edited by danw
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Yes I do agree with legal pest control. But with this thread as was the same in the last one, Keepers never shoots raptors, do they? What is a load of bull! I have already stated in the last thread, I shoot, fish, ferret, fly hawks and work dogs. I know and understand what goes on but that doesn't mean to say that I am comfortable with it.....

 

So its just game shoots you have a problem with and therefore the ethics of controlling pests for the purposes of protecting game birds? Im just trying to get to the root of your argument.

 

I've read the 'non native' argument a few times here, does that mean it is 'ok' to run a game shoot that only shoots grey partridge and hares and hence shoot spars and buzzards to stop over predation? Or is running a commercial shoot unethical no matter the quarry?

 

Those of you that are anti bop population management, can I ask if you control any native pest species on your permissions to support your game and other wildlife (song birds etc)?

 

Are we expected to tell the farmer that is loosing lambs that because the fox has a hard time living in the wild and is native that he is to tollerate the lamb losses?

 

:thumbs:

Firstly I don't have a problem with game shoots. Just some of the individuals that bring shooting and the keepering profession into disrepute by their actions.

Point is that the raptors take advantage of the artificially high population of prey items presented to them, that have been introduced or managed for mans pleasure and profit. It is man that has caused the 'problem' not the birds themselves.

In relation shoot ethics, Commercial shoots have only one main objective and that is to make money! It wasn't that long ago when some shoots were burying shot game by the thousand because there wasn't a market for it? You tell me that was right?

I doubt very much wether spars and buzzards as individuals would 'over predate.

" Anti bop management"? Is that the polite way of putting it? ;)

Contrl of pest species! I have trapped grey squirrels (another invasive introduced species) on a professional basis to help protect the reds. This has a bonus of helping protect nesting songbirds. As far a control of nataive pest species on my permissions they are on the quarry list for the birds.

Foxes! We all know that there is a pool and constant stream of foxes from urban areas out into the surrounding countryside. They also don't have a hard time living unless we have a really harsh winter then all wildlife struggle. If a fox is taking lambs then it is legal to remove the problem. I believe they are classed as vermin! ;)

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Firstly I don't have a problem with game shoots. Just some of the individuals that bring shooting and the keepering profession into disrepute by their actions.

Point is that the raptors take advantage of the artificially high population of prey items presented to them The same can be said of any other shoot pest, foxes, crows etc., that have been introduced or managed for mans pleasure and profit. It is man that has caused the 'problem' not the birds themselves. Again, the same can be said of all pests in game shooting and farming, so we leave them be as its not their fault, yes?In relation shoot ethics, Commercial shoots have only one main objective and that is to make money! It wasn't that long ago when some shoots were burying shot game by the thousand because there wasn't a market for it? Not sure as this is relavent to controlling bop to protect game birds, not all shoots do this! Just like not all falconers steal wild eggs! So stop trying to use an argument that only applies to a few shoots to the whole industry. You tell me that was right? What do you expect me to say? Dumping any shot game is disgracefull, you and I both know that!I doubt very much wether spars and buzzards as individuals would 'over predate.

" Anti bop management"? Is that the polite way of putting it? Yes, would you rather I was inpolite? ;)

Contrl of pest species! I have trapped grey squirrels (another invasive introduced species) on a professional basis to help protect the reds. This has a bonus of helping protect nesting songbirds. As far a control of nataive pest species on my permissions they are on the quarry list for the birds.

Foxes! We all know that there is a pool and constant stream of foxes from urban areas out into the surrounding countryside. They also don't have a hard time living unless we have a really harsh winter then all wildlife struggle If you are going to judge whether an animal deserves the status as a pest or not by how hard their wild life is then where do you draw the line? I would say a foxes life is just as hard as a bop! For a start, they are a legal pest and hunted to hell in some areas. Its a very subjective issue so a poor argument. I would prefer to base any argument for or against bop control on population sizes and damage being done.. If a fox is taking lambs then it is legal to remove the problem. I believe they are classed as vermin! So surely the same should apply to bop if their population is at a level where contrl would not endanger them? Why is it alright to say one animal is a pest yet another isnt purely based on the fact one is liked more?;)

Edited by Born Hunter
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How Buzzards can be mentioned in the same sentence as Vermin is beyond me :blink:. Buzzards certainly are'nt oportunists like some vermin that plague the keepers pen looking to muller everything that moves.

 

buzzard's will always look for a lazy meal and not the sort of bird that likes to expel alot of energy Hunting, they also have a pretty slow metabolism compared to some other species of BOP and can quite easily take a crop of food and go a few days without feeding again, they will also return regular to somthing stashed or pick up some carrion from a carcass somewhere.

 

spoke to the keeper on this estate where the Buzzards are plentifull, the keeper has told me he hasn't got a problem with them, he even mentioned to me he has seen buzzards take Rats and squirrels from under feeders, this might also seem hard to beleive but they have also taken Pigeons while feeding.

 

ok this contradicts whats said above considering Buzzards are lazy but attacks like this are not a regular occurance when a easier meal can be had elsewhere. ok they will and do take the odd poult but so does alot of other creatures which do it far more regular and many times more than just one at a time.

 

as for Buzzards taking strong winter Pheasants regular if at all :doh: ?

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How Buzzards can be mentioned in the same sentence as Vermin is beyond me :blink:. Buzzards certainly are'nt oportunists like some vermin that plague the keepers pen looking to muller everything that moves.

 

buzzard's will always look for a lazy meal and not the sort of bird that likes to expel alot of energy Hunting, they also have a pretty slow metabolism compared to some other species of BOP and can quite easily take a crop of food and go a few days without feeding again, they will also return regular to somthing stashed or pick up some carrion from a carcass somewhere.

 

spoke to the keeper on this estate where the Buzzards are plentifull, the keeper has told me he hasn't got a problem with them, he even mentioned to me he has seen buzzards take Rats and squirrels from under feeders, this might also seem hard to beleive but they have also taken Pigeons while feeding.

 

ok this contradicts whats said above considering Buzzards are lazy but attacks like this are not a regular occurance when a easier meal can be had elsewhere. ok they will and do take the odd poult but so does alot of other creatures which do it far more regular and many times more than just one at a time.

 

as for Buzzards taking strong winter Pheasants regular if at all :doh: ?

 

I agree with you jasper, on some shoots they cause very little damage and what they do is perfectly acceptable. However on others its a different story...

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I agree with you jasper, on some shoots they cause very little damage and what they do is perfectly acceptable. However on others its a different story...

 

My post certainly wasn't aimed at you BH :thumbs: . and I 100% agree they do and will take Gamebirds mate.

 

they put down a average of 15,000 Pheasants on this estate and a few thousand Partridge, there are Buzzards everywhere as I'm sure Millet can back me up on, I see them regular ringing round and round and never seen one yet take a Gamebird although I'm sure some poults get taken now and again.

 

there's a large meadow on the Esatate which you can only descibe as Watership down, its bunny city! this is the area where the Buzzards are most concentrated, there's a fair few bunny's with Mixy which I'm sure the Buzzards have been clearing up.

 

There's a large pen within a 100yds of My aviaries! when the poults are released my Garden is full of them everywhere, they even come into the feeders for the chickens. I have to say hand on heart I'm yet to see a Buzzard take one, I've seen a good few fox's about here which also took my Melanistic Pheasants :censored: but they end up being get cleared up in the end :thumbs:.

 

Jasp

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I agree with you jasper, on some shoots they cause very little damage and what they do is perfectly acceptable. However on others its a different story...

 

My post certainly wasn't aimed at you BH :thumbs: . and I 100% agree they do and will take Gamebirds mate.

 

they put down a average of 15,000 Pheasants on this estate and a few thousand Partridge, there are Buzzards everywhere as I'm sure Millet can back me up on, I see them regular ringing round and round and never seen one yet take a Gamebird although I'm sure some poults get taken now and again.

 

there's a large meadow on the Esatate which you can only descibe as Watership down, its bunny city! this is the area where the Buzzards are most concentrated, there's a fair few bunny's with Mixy which I'm sure the Buzzards have been clearing up.

 

There's a large pen within a 100yds of My aviaries! when the poults are released my Garden is full of them everywhere, they even come into the feeders for the chickens. I have to say hand on heart I'm yet to see a Buzzard take one, I've seen a good few fox's about here which also took my Melanistic Pheasants :censored: but they end up being get cleared up in the end :thumbs:.

 

Jasp

 

I wouldnt doubt what you say jasper mate, your an honest poster. I personally dont think they are as big a problem as some keepers like to think but I know they do cause trouble on many shoots with poults. I, like others, doubt the tales of buzzards being able to take mature pheasants, however a game farmer I was speaking to two years ago assured me he had seen one take a mature pheasant in flight on his shoot earlier that year... :hmm: Either way, the mature birds killed are few and far between.

 

One thing I have experienced with buzzards that I feel it is worth mentioning, 3 years ago on the small shoot I am involved with we had buzzards nesting in one of our spinneys that has a decent sized pen in it. We had alot of fatalities and problems that year not particularly through predation but the stress on the poults of constantly having buzzards watching them and nobbling them. If they had nested else where the losses through actual predation would have been normal and acceptable. A poults ambition in life is to kill itself, its a keepers job to stop it. Stress from them buzzards was as good a reason as any for them poults that year.

 

Having said all that im not changing my standpoint and becoming anti bop control. Others do suffer more severely and I think in such situations managemnt of the populations should be an option.

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Firstly I don't have a problem with game shoots. Just some of the individuals that bring shooting and the keepering profession into disrepute by their actions.

Point is that the raptors take advantage of the artificially high population of prey items presented to them The same can be said of any other shoot pest, foxes, crows etc., that have been introduced or managed for mans pleasure and profit. It is man that has caused the 'problem' not the birds themselves. Again, the same can be said of all pests in game shooting and farming, so we leave them be as its not their fault, yes?In relation shoot ethics, Commercial shoots have only one main objective and that is to make money! It wasn't that long ago when some shoots were burying shot game by the thousand because there wasn't a market for it? Not sure as this is relavent to controlling bop to protect game birds, not all shoots do this! Just like not all falconers steal wild eggs! So stop trying to use an argument that only applies to a few shoots to the whole industry. You tell me that was right? What do you expect me to say? Dumping any shot game is disgracefull, you and I both know that!I doubt very much wether spars and buzzards as individuals would 'over predate.

" Anti bop management"? Is that the polite way of putting it? Yes, would you rather I was inpolite? ;)

Contrl of pest species! I have trapped grey squirrels (another invasive introduced species) on a professional basis to help protect the reds. This has a bonus of helping protect nesting songbirds. As far a control of nataive pest species on my permissions they are on the quarry list for the birds.

Foxes! We all know that there is a pool and constant stream of foxes from urban areas out into the surrounding countryside. They also don't have a hard time living unless we have a really harsh winter then all wildlife struggle If you are going to judge whether an animal deserves the status as a pest or not by how hard their wild life is then where do you draw the line? I would say a foxes life is just as hard as a bop! For a start, they are a legal pest and hunted to hell in some areas. Its a very subjective issue so a poor argument. I would prefer to base any argument for or against bop control on population sizes and damage being done.. If a fox is taking lambs then it is legal to remove the problem. I believe they are classed as vermin! So surely the same should apply to bop if their population is at a level where contrl would not endanger them? Why is it alright to say one animal is a pest yet another isnt purely based on the fact one is liked more?;)

GREED! Thats all it is! Take a look at DWs post £££££££££££££££££££££££££ ?

We live in a world where in nature there are Pedators and Prey, From the plains of Africa and the mountains of Canada to your very own back garden there are creatures eating other creatures, even in the house that you live in.

Why do we control Deer?

We 'control' Deer because the natural predators ( Bear & Wolf ) were exterminated by man! Because they were deemed a threat!

The bi-product of this activity is stalking which produces revenue for the landowner...££££££££s this inturn provides employment for Stalkers/Deer managers, Ghillies ect.... The meat is also sold to the game dealer or exported out of the country. More ££££££s for the landowners.

"I would prefer to base any argument for or against bop control on population sizes and damage being done.." It is only damage to those who say it is! Because a bird has taken the odd £3.60 poult? Which I may add could quite easily die from disease, get caught up in netting etc.... These would be added to the 'acceptable' inevitable losses of the shoot.

"I would say a foxes life is just as hard as a bop!" Foxes are very well adapted to living in urban areas and can live on what we humans throw away! Raptors don't do that. Foxes - "For a start, they are a legal pest and hunted to hell in some areas". This I agree with.

I would say that on the whole 'Charlie' has it realativly easy one compared to raptors.

"Why is it alright to say one animal is a pest yet another isnt purely based on the fact one is liked more?" I do not dislike any of the 'Pest' species infact I quite like 'stoaty' and his kin! Corvids are interesting and very intelligent. I unlike some on these forums I have a conscience and I appreciate the natural world around me. I keep a balance between the shooting side of me and the Falconry side of me. These days I lean more towards the Falconry. I am also looking forward to Bowhunting becoming legal in Scotland, but that is a long way off! ;)

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GREED! Thats all it is! Take a look at DWs post £££££££££££££££££££££££££ ? I didnt realise running a shoot was so profitable, all keepers are millionaires right? Your acting very snobbish!We live in a world where in nature there are Pedators and Prey, From the plains of Africa and the mountains of Canada to your very own back garden there are creatures eating other creatures, even in the house that you live in. Im not as daft as I look, lol. Of course there is a food chain, even in our tame 'civilised' country. I would hate to think keepers/farmers want to eliminate our apex predators just because they are a pest, but management is different, even if many keepers dont seem to portray that attitude.Why do we control Deer?

We 'control' Deer because the natural predators ( Bear & Wolf ) were exterminated by man! Because they were deemed a threat!

The bi-product of this activity is stalking which produces revenue for the landowner...££££££££s this inturn provides employment for Stalkers/Deer managers, Ghillies ect.... The meat is also sold to the game dealer or exported out of the country. More ££££££s for the landowners. You really do have a problem with landowners dont you."I would prefer to base any argument for or against bop control on population sizes and damage being done.." It is only damage to those who say it is! Because a bird has taken the odd £3.60 poult? Which I may add could quite easily die from disease, get caught up in netting etc.... These would be added to the 'acceptable' inevitable losses of the shoot. Here is the problem, to you what is acceptable is not to others. (But because your opinion doesnt involve killing it clearly the right opinion? Right?) That just cant be agreed on. And you arnt really willing to acknowledge that on some shoots the damage is significant."I would say a foxes life is just as hard as a bop!" Foxes are very well adapted to living in urban areas and can live on what we humans throw away! Foxes are pests outside of towns and those were the foxes I was refering to. Raptors don't do that. Foxes - "For a start, they are a legal pest and hunted to hell in some areas". This I agree with.

I would say that on the whole 'Charlie' has it realativly easy one compared to raptors. Speculative! Hence why I dont really like it as a valid point for or against bop control."Why is it alright to say one animal is a pest yet another isnt purely based on the fact one is liked more?" I do not dislike any of the 'Pest' species infact I quite like 'stoaty' and his kin! Corvids are interesting and very intelligent. I unlike some on these forums I have a conscience and I appreciate the natural world around me. I keep a balance between the shooting side of me and the Falconry side of me. These days I lean more towards the Falconry. I am also looking forward to Bowhunting becoming legal in Scotland, but that is a long way off! ;)

 

Ill leave it at that, you seem a passionate and experienced man and I dont want this to turn into an argument. We just disagree. I never expected to change your mind just put some sort of argument across. I may very well be wrong, probably am... :laugh:

 

atb :thumbs:

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GREED! Thats all it is! Take a look at DWs post £££££££££££££££££££££££££ ? I didnt realise running a shoot was so profitable, all keepers are millionaires right? Your acting very snobbish!We live in a world where in nature there are Pedators and Prey, From the plains of Africa and the mountains of Canada to your very own back garden there are creatures eating other creatures, even in the house that you live in. Im not as daft as I look, lol. Of course there is a food chain, even in our tame 'civilised' country. I would hate to think keepers/farmers want to eliminate our apex predators just because they are a pest, but management is different, even if many keepers dont seem to portray that attitude.Why do we control Deer?

We 'control' Deer because the natural predators ( Bear & Wolf ) were exterminated by man! Because they were deemed a threat!

The bi-product of this activity is stalking which produces revenue for the landowner...££££££££s this inturn provides employment for Stalkers/Deer managers, Ghillies ect.... The meat is also sold to the game dealer or exported out of the country. More ££££££s for the landowners. You really do have a problem with landowners dont you."I would prefer to base any argument for or against bop control on population sizes and damage being done.." It is only damage to those who say it is! Because a bird has taken the odd £3.60 poult? Which I may add could quite easily die from disease, get caught up in netting etc.... These would be added to the 'acceptable' inevitable losses of the shoot. Here is the problem, to you what is acceptable is not to others. (But because your opinion doesnt involve killing it clearly the right opinion? Right?) That just cant be agreed on. And you arnt really willing to acknowledge that on some shoots the damage is significant."I would say a foxes life is just as hard as a bop!" Foxes are very well adapted to living in urban areas and can live on what we humans throw away! Foxes are pests outside of towns and those were the foxes I was refering to. Raptors don't do that. Foxes - "For a start, they are a legal pest and hunted to hell in some areas". This I agree with.

I would say that on the whole 'Charlie' has it realativly easy one compared to raptors. Speculative! Hence why I dont really like it as a valid point for or against bop control."Why is it alright to say one animal is a pest yet another isnt purely based on the fact one is liked more?" I do not dislike any of the 'Pest' species infact I quite like 'stoaty' and his kin! Corvids are interesting and very intelligent. I unlike some on these forums I have a conscience and I appreciate the natural world around me. I keep a balance between the shooting side of me and the Falconry side of me. These days I lean more towards the Falconry. I am also looking forward to Bowhunting becoming legal in Scotland, but that is a long way off! ;)

 

Ill leave it at that, you seem a passionate and experienced man and I dont want this to turn into an argument. We just disagree. I never expected to change your mind just put some sort of argument across. I may very well be wrong, probably am... :laugh:

 

atb :thumbs:

I didnt realise running a shoot was so profitable, all keepers are millionaires right? ?? I was referring to the people that employ the keepers! Your acting very snobbish! That is something what most wealthy landowners are like. And I have met just one or two over the years. On the whole they are nice people, just a little up themselves.

You really do have a problem with landowners dont you. I don't actually!

This sort of argument repeats itself year after year and nothing seems to change?

Just like all the articles in the shooting times! New name, different face, same old thing! :D

Edited by EskdaleHawks
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I agree with you jasper, on some shoots they cause very little damage and what they do is perfectly acceptable. However on others its a different story...

 

My post certainly wasn't aimed at you BH :thumbs: . and I 100% agree they do and will take Gamebirds mate.

 

they put down a average of 15,000 Pheasants on this estate and a few thousand Partridge, there are Buzzards everywhere as I'm sure Millet can back me up on, I see them regular ringing round and round and never seen one yet take a Gamebird although I'm sure some poults get taken now and again.

 

there's a large meadow on the Esatate which you can only descibe as Watership down, its bunny city! this is the area where the Buzzards are most concentrated, there's a fair few bunny's with Mixy which I'm sure the Buzzards have been clearing up.

 

There's a large pen within a 100yds of My aviaries! when the poults are released my Garden is full of them everywhere, they even come into the feeders for the chickens. I have to say hand on heart I'm yet to see a Buzzard take one, I've seen a good few fox's about here which also took my Melanistic Pheasants :censored: but they end up being get cleared up in the end :thumbs:.

 

Jasp

Nope cant keep away from it.........i tried!!!.... :wallbash:

In both your posts Jasper you indicate that Buzzards dont take that many poults......wrong!! They do! A Buzzard will take 1, 2 maybe even 3 a day if it feels like it, they also have young birds that learn very quickly that a poult is easy meat. Now a quick calculation and lets say 10 birds a week for maybe 6 weeks thats 60 poults gone by that 1 bird and we all know how much of them are around at the moment. Combine that with the Sparrow hawk who will take 1 a day 'everyday' for around 3/4 weeks thats another 25-30 out the window.....so between these 2 working birds thats 90 poults gone.......90 bird driven day at a steal of £25 per bird equals £2250....now i'm sorry mate but that could be the difference of making a shoot worth while the doing..... :yes:

As for your keeper friend not telling you that Buzzards are effecting his poults......why would he tell you what goes on when he knows fine well what your interests are..... :bye:

Al just add i do agree that Buzzards dont take fully fit fully grown pheasants...........i have also seen a Buzzard eating a Red squirrel that it had caught..... :thumbs:

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