a friend using my rimmy,

[RAPID7LIAM 7]

As far as i'm aware a friend can use my rimfire on my permission with me there.

What if i have 2 rifles and we take one each? where does the law stand on this?

We normally lamp out of the 4x4 and he drives and i'll have a spell of driving later to give him a few shots or he'll lamp if we're on foot and he'll have the odd shot but what if i were to take my 2 rifles out? cheers, Liam..

Edited December 16, 2010 by RAPID7LIAM

[matt_hooks 188]

If the rifle's not on his ticket, then he would be using it under the "estate condition" which means that he can use it "under your supervision" which is usually taken to mean that he is within sight/sound of you. So if you were both hunting the same field, then it would probably be ok, as long as you can prove that you are effectively supervising the weapon. What you couldn't do legally would be to give him the gun and let him wander off on his own with it.

[RAPID7LIAM 7]

Thats what i was hoping but were'nt so sure, he would'nt be out of my sight as i would'nt like anyone else shooting in the same area without knowing where he was shooting so we'd be more or less side by side, Thanks.

[Colster 1]

I've done this a couple of times with a non-FAC holder and we're both using one of my guns and when we weren't in line of sight of each other we used walkie talkies. I tend to use the walkie talkies if I'm shooting with another FAC holder anyway, if we're not going to be together all the time so we know where the other is at all times.

[Deker 3,453]

Specific sections of the firearms Acts have been quoted on this several times historically, I'm sure a search will turn them up.

 

The answers above are the precis versions and accurate.

 

As always it's in the detail but go for it!

[matt_hooks 188]

Agreed Deker, in this case it's all about the definition of "supervision" for the estate condition. But if you're next to each other that's fine.

[red fell 0]

i thought you had to be the land owner or his agent , gamekeeper or stalker to be able to give someone a gun while out in the field. but phone basc.nga . they will give

you the correct answer

[matt_hooks 188]

i thought you had to be the land owner or his agent , gamekeeper or stalker to be able to give someone a gun while out in the field. but phone basc.nga . they will give

you the correct answer

 

Again, this has been subject of no end of discussion. The general consensus is that the spirit of the law, where it states "land owner or his agent" refers to someone who has the right to shoot over the land, so someone that the holder of the shooting rights has given permission to shoot qualifies under that. It doesn't have to be an employee, as long as the holder has permission to shoot over the land.

[Deker 3,453]

i thought you had to be the land owner or his agent , gamekeeper or stalker to be able to give someone a gun while out in the field. but phone basc.nga . they will give

you the correct answer

 

Again, this has been subject of no end of discussion. The general consensus is that the spirit of the law, where it states "land owner or his agent" refers to someone who has the right to shoot over the land, so someone that the holder of the shooting rights has given permission to shoot qualifies under that. It doesn't have to be an employee, as long as the holder has permission to shoot over the land.

 

 

The term generally used for this is "Occupier"

[Tobias 0]

so does this mean i could legally let my nephew who is 16 have a go on my rimfire if i was sat next to him on land i have full permission on? at the moment he just uses one of my air rifles with me.

[Deker 3,453]

so does this mean i could legally let my nephew who is 16 have a go on my rimfire if i was sat next to him on land i have full permission on? at the moment he just uses one of my air rifles with me.

 

 

Yes, when he gets to 17, as long as he is under your control and you are the occupier, my lad often used any and all of my tools right up to .308 before he had his own FAC/SGC!

 

It's a bit of a read but worth it, Shotguns and Rifles.

 

The LAW......

 

EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE

 

Shot guns

 

Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows

an individual, without holding a shot gun

certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the

occupier of private premises and use it on

those premises in the occupier’s presence.

The presence of the occupier is normally

taken to mean within sight and earshot of the

individual borrowing the firearm. The term

“occupier” is not defined in the Firearms

Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning.

However, the Firearms Consultative

Committee in their 5th Annual report

recommended that the provisions of section

27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in

relation to any land, other than the foreshore,

includes any person having any right of

hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or

fish’. In the absence of any firm definition

for firearms purposes, it is suggested that

each chief officer of police may wish to make

use of this definition. On some occasions

though, where the status of a certificate

holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the

chief officer may need to consider seeking

the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides

that “premises” shall include any land. The

borrower may be of any age but an offence

may be committed under section 22(3) if a

minor under the age of 15 is not supervised

by a person over 21 years of age.

Similarly, section 11(6) of the 1968 Act

allows an individual, without holding a shot

gun certificate, to use a shot gun at a time

and place approved for shooting at artificial

targets by the chief officer of police for the

area in which that place is situated. As the

approval of such time and place is prescribed

by law and there may be duty of care issues

involved, chief officers may wish not only

to satisfy themselves that such events are

properly conducted and supervised, but also

to establish that there are no public safety

issues involved. When an exemption is

granted, the chief officer should advise

the organiser that they are responsible for

ensuring, so far as is practicable, that

adequate precautions are taken for the safety

of the participants and any spectators. Shoots

at which participants hold certificates do not

require an exemption under section 11(6).

Organisers operating in conjunction with

business, such as corporate entertainment,

will have additional responsibilities under

the Health and Safety at Work Act.

 

Borrowed rifles on private premises

 

Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate. These may include a

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,

territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the

1968 Act defines “premises” as including any

land. The effect of the provision is to allow

a person visiting a private estate to borrow

and use a rifle without a certificate. The

exemption does not extend to persons under

the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

There is no notification required on the

loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically

identified as such on a “keeper’s” or

“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term

“in the presence of” is not defined in law

but is generally interpreted as being within

sight and earshot.

 

Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides

for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance

with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to

purchase or acquire ammunition for use in

the rifle, and to have it in their possession

during the period for which the rifle is

borrowed, without holding a certificate. The

borrower’s possession of the ammunition

must comply with the conditions on the

certificate of the person in whose presence

they are and the amount of ammunition

borrowed must not exceed that which the

certificate holder is authorised to have in

their possession at that time. It should be

noted that the borrower may only take

possession of the ammunition during the

period of the loan of the rifle at which time

they will be in the presence of the certificate

holder. If the persons selling or handing

over the ammunition are not certificate

holders, it may be necessary for them to

see the certificate to satisfy themselves that

the terms of this section have been met and

that the amount of ammunition the borrower

wishes to acquire is no greater than that

which the certificate holder is authorised

to possess. However, the details of the

transaction need not be recorded on

the certificate.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Deker

[Tobias 0]

Very good info there thanks deker,I will now let him have a go on my shotgun when out if he wants but only at targets until he gets confident with it.