NUTTALL THE DIVIDING LINE??

[CorkyJohn 808]

brians dogs were too game and too small even in the early 90s, show dogs they wern't thank god but definatley started to look very bully, a fact not helped by the fact that his son kept apbt's i saw a lovely small pure apbt at his place in about 94 and asked him was he using it in his breeding program which he denied .

A good mate of mine bought a nice bitch pup a few years ago and asked for the breeding lines it was all written down on a sheet of paper , he misplaced that and on a visit a couple of months later asked for a replacement , guess what the 1st pedigree turned up after a year or so and the two were completely different go figure

he's a nice bloke but i think the dosh got the better of him over time

How about hes an old bloke that has had ill health in recent years just maybe that had something to do with it ,i wish and hope i can get out and about like him when im his age . I dont agree with all the pup selling but with all this talk of his dogs now being shit ,it sounds strange to me that men who are supposed to have better lines of dogs are still trying to get pups out of some of his stock ,doesnt say much for theirs .

Nobody wants to see BN in ill health but that has got nothing to do with the points made in this thread. He was breeding for the overseas market many, many years ago. Who's trying to get pups out of his stock?

[MISTY 11]

brians dogs were too game and too small even in the early 90s, show dogs they wern't thank god but definatley started to look very bully, a fact not helped by the fact that his son kept apbt's i saw a lovely small pure apbt at his place in about 94 and asked him was he using it in his breeding program which he denied .

A good mate of mine bought a nice bitch pup a few years ago and asked for the breeding lines it was all written down on a sheet of paper , he misplaced that and on a visit a couple of months later asked for a replacement , guess what the 1st pedigree turned up after a year or so and the two were completely different go figure

he's a nice bloke but i think the dosh got the better of him over time

How about hes an old bloke that has had ill health in recent years just maybe that had something to do with it ,i wish and hope i can get out and about like him when im his age . I dont agree with all the pup selling but with all this talk of his dogs now being shit ,it sounds strange to me that men who are supposed to have better lines of dogs are still trying to get pups out of some of his stock ,doesnt say much for theirs .

err did i say his dogs were shit no i didn't i said they were to game 'its not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog ' was what he used to chuckle at us

he's knocking on now allright but this was all 15 years ago not yesterday

Was talking in general ,that bull in his yard in 94 was it his ?

[MISTY 11]

Im sure this thread started of as THE DIVIDING LINE ?lets get back on track and all the experts can enlighten us .

[22hornet 1]

brians dogs were too game and too small even in the early 90s, show dogs they wern't thank god but definatley started to look very bully, a fact not helped by the fact that his son kept apbt's i saw a lovely small pure apbt at his place in about 94 and asked him was he using it in his breeding program which he denied .

A good mate of mine bought a nice bitch pup a few years ago and asked for the breeding lines it was all written down on a sheet of paper , he misplaced that and on a visit a couple of months later asked for a replacement , guess what the 1st pedigree turned up after a year or so and the two were completely different go figure

he's a nice bloke but i think the dosh got the better of him over time

How about hes an old bloke that has had ill health in recent years just maybe that had something to do with it ,i wish and hope i can get out and about like him when im his age . I dont agree with all the pup selling but with all this talk of his dogs now being shit ,it sounds strange to me that men who are supposed to have better lines of dogs are still trying to get pups out of some of his stock ,doesnt say much for theirs .

err did i say his dogs were shit no i didn't i said they were to game 'its not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog ' was what he used to chuckle at us

he's knocking on now allright but this was all 15 years ago not yesterday

Was talking in general ,that bull in his yard in 94 was it his ?

He said not belonged to his son

[MISTY 11]

Nobody wants to see BN in ill health but that has got nothing to do with the points made in this thread. He was breeding for the overseas market many, many years ago. Who's trying to get pups out of his stock?

I thought this thread was about the dividing line ,you would be surprised who is after his blood .

[CorkyJohn 808]

If I was looking for good blood/lines I wouldn't be interested in BN's. There's plenty of lads got tried & tested stuff so why chance it? I take it the people you are on about are more interested in the money than working ability?

[MISTY 11]

If I was looking for good blood/lines I wouldn't be interested in BN's. There's plenty of lads got tried & tested stuff so why chance it? I take it the people you are on about are more interested in the money than working ability?

Funny enough there not,so they must keep pure shit

[stevolad 26]

I bet half the black dogs out there have nothing to do with Brian and will have never seen or been in his yard! Just a name used to sell pups more often than not, heard a few people from different parts of the country referring to black terriers as 'Nuttall Terrier's' as if it's a breed of dog rather than being out of his stock.

 

Point proved after posting this and clicking on the new content button to be greeted by a new topic - How To Train My Nuttall Terrier! People get told stuff and don't know what they are on about which can lead to an increased bad reputation for someone who has nothing to do with the dog or it's breeding.

Edited July 30, 2010 by stevolad

[Guest dee mac]

this is my take on things mr nuttall might of went the way of the pound note but the only reason we are still talking about him is because in his day this man bred dogs that worked too a very good standard full stop. if he was a dealer breeding dirt from day one he d of be rumbled long ago but remember as this man got older he slipped down the road of demand so he supplyed thats plane too be seen but he was nt the only one all famous name s in the terrier world got there name s from hyping up either a good worker or studing a pure show dog fact! the best dogs are standing in the kennells of lads who work there dogs week in week out and want too keep that going they dont crave money or fame and you ll find that there dogs have history going back too all these men nuttall gould middleton etc difference is the big timers lost sight of what these dogs were bred to do thankfully the quiet unasuming men took these dogs under there wing and kept them doing what there supposed too do which was work and work only drunkin rant over .

[nelly 1 2]

ive met the man 3 times over a 20 year period,hes a absaloute gent.the old and the new it must stem from when border was interduced into the line.speaking from what ive seen of his line old and new .me prefaring the old,but my mate got a bitch off him 4 years ago,and its a real en .double bred miner she about 13 inch strong and she will dig anything,the point is the working ability as nt changed.but we are back too the breeding ,good and bad in every breed.

cheers

N

[CarraghsGem 92]

good friend of mine had a dog directly out of b.n's kennels. in the last 5yrs. dog was in no shape or form any use whatsoever. smooth coated small stumpy thing that looked like a mini staffy x pug. wouldnt even kill a rat.

 

ive an predominately old bloodline nuttel patt here and hes a different animal alltogether, will do all thats asked of him and more. ive no patience for this new bloodline whatsoever.

[beagler 0]

brand name dogs is all thay are brian had his day he turned to money he gave dogs out to men to try if they didnt work he gave them an another one we could all do that he a nice man in ireland nuttels was fox dogs nothing else i tink there is better dogs with men that digs and keeps their mouth shut not money men the man that has to sell his dog is lackin something

[Bosun11 537]

Im sure this thread started of as THE DIVIDING LINE ?lets get back on track and all the experts can enlighten us .

 

Your dead right Misty, this thred is about THE DIVIDING LINE but i'm no expert, this is my take on it.

 

I don't belive there is any such thing as 'old Nuttall', new Nuttall YES! Bold statement, well maybe but i've never seen ,even back in the 's, any dog that I could tell was of a stamp created by Brian, as soon as Fell Terrier was bought by many, Brians 'type' was seen as the same as Breay's. During the 's Brian attended many shows, the dogs around him were of a type, distinctive from the dogs bred by Gould, who was also attending lots of shows at the time, so was Brians type his.... Did he create that stamp...I doubt it.

Brian simply bred off predominantly Cyril Breay terriers, he produced a lot of 'em and many dog lads bought dogs off him. Did those lads in the early days know, or even heard of Cyril Breay, a man that hardly left the Lakes in his lifetime and as described by Plummer, 'shy and retiring'... NO, so the dogs off Brian were seen as 'Nuttall Terriers'!!

It would be the no different if I bought dogs off a excellent line, say Stevens for aruments sake and produced a lot of 'em, would they be 'Bosun' dogs.... Would they feck!!

I belive what Brian then did was evolve a type, over time, so no direct dividing line, of terriers that would and could be used predominantly for fox, that could be be seen as 'his' dogs, 'Nuttall Terriers'. Smaller and more wrecklass, the'd get anywhere and pitch in, a fox dog! Exactley the type if you want to breed working terriers for a market.

Today you can see a dog that is of Nuttall type, i recognise 'em and so do most lads. Like I said, these dogs have been bred over time, bred to work but also bred to sell, if you want to sell anything its got to be recognised as 'by you', therefore people would go back to the seller for another. Lets not kid ourselves, in the early 's when the working dog 'boom' hit, Brian was in direct contact with Plummer, who himself was 'creating' dogs recognisable as his, in my eyes its a similar tale, though a little less 'obvious' and Brian did have original stock with a fabulous working pedigree behind 'em to start and many folk have been very satisfied with them, hold 'em in very high regard and rightly so, if the dog suits your needs, then, thats all you want!

[Cleanspade 3,322]

Back to the original question, was miner a big part in this line, the seperation of the old and new?

 

Right AA this is my take on it. Back in 1988 Brian Nuttall gave a talk night in the Dog & Partridge pub, in Pemberton, Wigan, for the old Wigan Dog Club of which I was the Chairman. As always Brian was articulate, well spoken and a font of knowlage of all things working terrier and hunting. At the end of the evening he took an open forum Q&A, the pub was packed full and I can remember the same two questions being repeated over...

 

1. What is the difference between his old and new stock?

 

2. Has he put any bull blood in his dogs?

 

On Q1, Brian stated that there was no difference in his terriers past and present, in size, type or working ability. He said they were bred for fox and fox only and thats what they would do, thats what he gave a money back guarentee on.

 

On Q2, Brian stated that he has never put any bull blood into the line.

 

See the thing is, on this forum this same question keeps coming up BUT what i'm trying to say is... It was back then too, I don't know the year of Miner's birth but i'm sure it wasn't that far back?

Lads could see a difference, in size, type and to be honest, working ability. I was a youngster back then, keen as mustard and the 'token' Chairman of the club BUT there was plenty of old school, hard bitten digging lads in that club and many dug with Brian, owned some of his stock, in the past but not one agreed with him on that 'same stock' answer.

 

I like Brian and in no way would I disrespect the man but i'll say things as i've seen 'em.

 

Since that night i've been at two other talk nights with Brian, both with the MWTLC, the same questions came up there, with the same answers and again with the same rumblings after. A member on here, 'MR1' answered plenty of questions about Brian and his dogs on his posts, if you need to know more it may be well worth looking for them, he's a lot more qualified than me to answer but don't pm him he ain't on no more, just read the posts.

 

Oh, just in case anyone is wondering, i've dug to a fair few of Brians dogs, three directly out of Miner, only one I rated, a big dog, unlike Brians usual stock, looked like the pic of Wally Wild's Kipper in Fell Terrier, that dog could handle deep digs, anywhere.. Maybe he was a throwback?

The ones that would 'go' i've found too small and far too wreckless for their size, wading in right from the start, getting smashed to bits on early digs, they didn't have a long career!

I believe that the type that Brian originally got off Breay & Buck has been washed away in the 's flood of all things working dog, Brains never going to admit it but he's bred for a certain type, a type that can be seen as a Nuttall bred dog, a little more of conformation than ability, little things get lost along the way and I have evidence of that too!

 

the wigan club used to run some good shows. when i was a youngster i lived just down the road and went to a couple. there was some decent terriers around there. i got a couple from a fella in preston and won my first rosette there with a mates terrier

 

as for mister nuttalls stock. did the fame of the book the fell terrier not give him the limelight. and create a bigger market for his stock. if so mr plummer would be to blame for any deteriation of these terriers.

Bollocks, the blame lies at the feet of the breeder end of..... Plummer was a prick but blaming him for writing a book?

 

 

sarcasm is lost on some folk to put it in a nutshell nuttall got better known for his workers due to his higher profile and then started to supply the demand. therte is the difference some where bred for work and some where bred to sell

Edited July 31, 2010 by Cleanspade

[Guest eastmids]

seeing as some of you knew the miner dog and brian quite well,was the borderer (dog which i think was miners grandsire) full/half border what was the thinking behind adding border blood?

Edited August 3, 2010 by eastmids