NUTTALL THE DIVIDING LINE??

[Cleanspade 3,322]

Back to the original question, was miner a big part in this line, the seperation of the old and new?

 

Right AA this is my take on it. Back in 1988 Brian Nuttall gave a talk night in the Dog & Partridge pub, in Pemberton, Wigan, for the old Wigan Dog Club of which I was the Chairman. As always Brian was articulate, well spoken and a font of knowlage of all things working terrier and hunting. At the end of the evening he took an open forum Q&A, the pub was packed full and I can remember the same two questions being repeated over...

 

1. What is the difference between his old and new stock?

 

2. Has he put any bull blood in his dogs?

 

On Q1, Brian stated that there was no difference in his terriers past and present, in size, type or working ability. He said they were bred for fox and fox only and thats what they would do, thats what he gave a money back guarentee on.

 

On Q2, Brian stated that he has never put any bull blood into the line.

 

See the thing is, on this forum this same question keeps coming up BUT what i'm trying to say is... It was back then too, I don't know the year of Miner's birth but i'm sure it wasn't that far back?

Lads could see a difference, in size, type and to be honest, working ability. I was a youngster back then, keen as mustard and the 'token' Chairman of the club BUT there was plenty of old school, hard bitten digging lads in that club and many dug with Brian, owned some of his stock, in the past but not one agreed with him on that 'same stock' answer.

 

I like Brian and in no way would I disrespect the man but i'll say things as i've seen 'em.

 

Since that night i've been at two other talk nights with Brian, both with the MWTLC, the same questions came up there, with the same answers and again with the same rumblings after. A member on here, 'MR1' answered plenty of questions about Brian and his dogs on his posts, if you need to know more it may be well worth looking for them, he's a lot more qualified than me to answer but don't pm him he ain't on no more, just read the posts.

 

Oh, just in case anyone is wondering, i've dug to a fair few of Brians dogs, three directly out of Miner, only one I rated, a big dog, unlike Brians usual stock, looked like the pic of Wally Wild's Kipper in Fell Terrier, that dog could handle deep digs, anywhere.. Maybe he was a throwback?

The ones that would 'go' i've found too small and far too wreckless for their size, wading in right from the start, getting smashed to bits on early digs, they didn't have a long career!

I believe that the type that Brian originally got off Breay & Buck has been washed away in the 's flood of all things working dog, Brains never going to admit it but he's bred for a certain type, a type that can be seen as a Nuttall bred dog, a little more of conformation than ability, little things get lost along the way and I have evidence of that too!

 

the wigan club used to run some good shows. when i was a youngster i lived just down the road and went to a couple. there was some decent terriers around there. i got a couple from a fella in preston and won my first rosette there with a mates terrier

 

as for mister nuttalls stock. did the fame of the book the fell terrier not give him the limelight. and create a bigger market for his stock. if so mr plummer would be to blame for any deteriation of these terriers.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Cleanspade

[CorkyJohn 808]

Good post Bosun11, spoken from experience

My black dog goes back to old Nuttall stuff on the sires side. I was told he is related to G.D's dog called Chester who featured in Darcys book

[bannyboy 3]

Good post there Bosun .bannyboy

[CorkyJohn 808]

Back to the original question, was miner a big part in this line, the seperation of the old and new?

 

Right AA this is my take on it. Back in 1988 Brian Nuttall gave a talk night in the Dog & Partridge pub, in Pemberton, Wigan, for the old Wigan Dog Club of which I was the Chairman. As always Brian was articulate, well spoken and a font of knowlage of all things working terrier and hunting. At the end of the evening he took an open forum Q&A, the pub was packed full and I can remember the same two questions being repeated over...

 

1. What is the difference between his old and new stock?

 

2. Has he put any bull blood in his dogs?

 

On Q1, Brian stated that there was no difference in his terriers past and present, in size, type or working ability. He said they were bred for fox and fox only and thats what they would do, thats what he gave a money back guarentee on.

 

On Q2, Brian stated that he has never put any bull blood into the line.

 

See the thing is, on this forum this same question keeps coming up BUT what i'm trying to say is... It was back then too, I don't know the year of Miner's birth but i'm sure it wasn't that far back?

Lads could see a difference, in size, type and to be honest, working ability. I was a youngster back then, keen as mustard and the 'token' Chairman of the club BUT there was plenty of old school, hard bitten digging lads in that club and many dug with Brian, owned some of his stock, in the past but not one agreed with him on that 'same stock' answer.

 

I like Brian and in no way would I disrespect the man but i'll say things as i've seen 'em.

 

Since that night i've been at two other talk nights with Brian, both with the MWTLC, the same questions came up there, with the same answers and again with the same rumblings after. A member on here, 'MR1' answered plenty of questions about Brian and his dogs on his posts, if you need to know more it may be well worth looking for them, he's a lot more qualified than me to answer but don't pm him he ain't on no more, just read the posts.

 

Oh, just in case anyone is wondering, i've dug to a fair few of Brians dogs, three directly out of Miner, only one I rated, a big dog, unlike Brians usual stock, looked like the pic of Wally Wild's Kipper in Fell Terrier, that dog could handle deep digs, anywhere.. Maybe he was a throwback?

The ones that would 'go' i've found too small and far too wreckless for their size, wading in right from the start, getting smashed to bits on early digs, they didn't have a long career!

I believe that the type that Brian originally got off Breay & Buck has been washed away in the 's flood of all things working dog, Brains never going to admit it but he's bred for a certain type, a type that can be seen as a Nuttall bred dog, a little more of conformation than ability, little things get lost along the way and I have evidence of that too!

 

the wigan club used to run some good shows. when i was a youngster i lived just down the road and went to a couple. there was some decent terriers around there. i got a couple from a fella in preston and won my first rosette there with a mates terrier

 

as for mister nuttalls stock. did the fame of the book the fell terrier not give him the limelight. and create a bigger market for his stock. if so mr plummer would be to blame for any deteriation of these terriers.

Bollocks, the blame lies at the feet of the breeder end of..... Plummer was a prick but blaming him for writing a book?

[Guest AngelicAcid]

Good post B Dog.

 

Ive seen a few decent threads on these forums, and i wont go off what ive read, but there are people who will not even entertain a small drop of Nuttall blood.

But wsa his terriers of buck and breay not the setting for all black terriers today.

I knew soemone who had a nuttall type black terrier/dark brown in the 50s, this is what ive been told, and have no reason to dis beleive this, as it was my father who had the dog around the leyburn area , a small bitch called gin, she would be used to control foxes on the moors, and was soemtimes worked very very hard and never gave an inch.

[Bosun11 537]

AA, back in the 50's in Leyburn (home of Frank Buck) i'll bet they called it a Fell, as did both Buck & Brey, they may have also said B&B type. Things may have gotten a little corrupted over time and to generalise the type may of said a Nuttall, as thats the most common known stamp of black now.

[hedz31 1,308]

Good post B Dog.

 

Ive seen a few decent threads on these forums, and i wont go off what ive read, but there are people who will not even entertain a small drop of Nuttall blood.

But wsa his terriers of buck and breay not the setting for all black terriers today.

I knew soemone who had a nuttall type black terrier/dark brown in the 50s, this is what ive been told, and have no reason to dis beleive this, as it was my father who had the dog around the leyburn area , a small bitch called gin, she would be used to control foxes on the moors, and was soemtimes worked very very hard and never gave an inch.

they were not of frank buck he did not take that side, he more took cyril breays type frank buck prefered the rougher coated black fell type with lakeland blood in it, and cyril breay prefered the smooth jacket type they did line there stuff together but still kept there own type and line brian nuttall had cyril breays stuff when he was younger from his father or grandfather that were friends with cyril breay were they not, brian also prefered the smooth jacket type also and did strive to run that in his line and put his mark on the type which he has suceeded in, and i dont belive his terriers from breays line were the settling for all black terriers of today there were other types of fell that through black but not so much with the smooth jacket as breays they all originate i think from joe bowmans terriers which were borders the same as what breay started with all brian nuttall has done has create a stamp of terrier with his name on it,then cashed in and he is not the only one to have done it but has done it on a far larger scale i dont dislkie the man and have met him a good few times and i know first hand he can spin a yarn and bend the truth to sell pups so its hard to respect him his name could of gone down with the greats but now he will always be remembered as someone that churned out pups and ruined a good thing

[Ashover rabbit dogs 76]

Brian has gotten old now so can't dig himself anymore,its a shame to hear him talked about in this way,some year's back when he was struggling to get out regular and work his dogs, my mate and I would run a few on for him,he'd give us a dog about 9mths- 1yr old for us to start,once they were staying and dug to we would exchange them for another,never had a bad one or one that wouldn't go,if anything they could be too hard for the work we were doing,he was doing a lot in america at the time and getting good money for them,like all big names he runs a few lines and the proper good stuff only went to close friends and known people,if you could get 4 or 5 times the amount for a pup by selling in america then you would,thats human nature,I've never known the man to be anything other than a gentleman and good company to boot,took his share on the shovel at 70 odd years of age and you can't say there's many would do that,I have'nt seen or spoke to him for a good few year's now and as regards his terrier's now all I can say is if you don't test your dogs regular then you will not know their capabilities or limits,we all get old,he has had a lifetime of dog's and I for 1 hope I'm still getting out and about at his age,I would suspect he will still have the proper blood somewhere,its just not available to all and sundry,YIS,wirralman

well said mate, it seems to me anybody who has a name for themselfs will get ridiculed on this site, i dont personaly use todays nuttal stuff in my fells but a few generations back i used my fell dog over a half bred nuttal bitch and kept a pup they have no resemblance to the nuttals of today. the dogs out of this all worked hard, bred some of my best dogs out of this line.

He has a name for a reason i.e he USED to breed good dogs UNTIL he started breeding for the American market. This to most folks means he is a peddler & there is no point in defending this unless you agree with peddling pups. I can't see how you breeding 1/4 Nuttall pups has any bearing on the argument, after all there isn't much Nuttall in them. Then again, did your breeding improve the Nuttall side or the Nuttall improve your breeding Mr Rabbit Dogs?

firstly its Mrs ashover replying to this topic. oh yeah i really agree with peddling pups, thats why any tom dick or harry owns a terrier from our line, i dont think so. My point was i used the old type of nuttall back in the early 90's but i wouldnt use todays stuff because in my opinion it would take away rather than add to them.

[scent 509]

Am i right in thinking that the size wemt down a hell of a lot in the last 15 or so years?

and there wasnt just the smooth black type, ie also rough coats?

small patts are needed in the states for coons and hogs and nutria so i suppose he saw a gap in the market

[22hornet 1]

brians dogs were too game and too small even in the early 90s, show dogs they wern't thank god but definatley started to look very bully, a fact not helped by the fact that his son kept apbt's i saw a lovely small pure apbt at his place in about 94 and asked him was he using it in his breeding program which he denied .

A good mate of mine bought a nice bitch pup a few years ago and asked for the breeding lines it was all written down on a sheet of paper , he misplaced that and on a visit a couple of months later asked for a replacement , guess what the 1st pedigree turned up after a year or so and the two were completely different go figure

he's a nice bloke but i think the dosh got the better of him over time

[CorkyJohn 808]

Am i right in thinking that the size wemt down a hell of a lot in the last 15 or so years?

and there wasnt just the smooth black type, ie also rough coats?

small patts are needed in the states for coons and hogs and nutria so i suppose he saw a gap in the market

The coons round here carry knives & sell drugs etc so I'd have thought a bigger type of dog would do better

Edited July 30, 2010 by CorkyJohn

[scent 509]

Am i right in thinking that the size wemt down a hell of a lot in the last 15 or so years?

and there wasnt just the smooth black type, ie also rough coats?

small patts are needed in the states for coons and hogs and nutria so i suppose he saw a gap in the market

The coons round here carry knives & sell drugs etc so I'd have thought a bigger type of dog would do better

sounds like you need a good full racist pit

[CorkyJohn 808]

Your right mate

[MISTY 11]

brians dogs were too game and too small even in the early 90s, show dogs they wern't thank god but definatley started to look very bully, a fact not helped by the fact that his son kept apbt's i saw a lovely small pure apbt at his place in about 94 and asked him was he using it in his breeding program which he denied .

A good mate of mine bought a nice bitch pup a few years ago and asked for the breeding lines it was all written down on a sheet of paper , he misplaced that and on a visit a couple of months later asked for a replacement , guess what the 1st pedigree turned up after a year or so and the two were completely different go figure

he's a nice bloke but i think the dosh got the better of him over time

How about hes an old bloke that has had ill health in recent years just maybe that had something to do with it ,i wish and hope i can get out and about like him when im his age . I dont agree with all the pup selling but with all this talk of his dogs now being shit ,it sounds strange to me that men who are supposed to have better lines of dogs are still trying to get pups out of some of his stock ,doesnt say much for theirs .

[22hornet 1]

brians dogs were too game and too small even in the early 90s, show dogs they wern't thank god but definatley started to look very bully, a fact not helped by the fact that his son kept apbt's i saw a lovely small pure apbt at his place in about 94 and asked him was he using it in his breeding program which he denied .

A good mate of mine bought a nice bitch pup a few years ago and asked for the breeding lines it was all written down on a sheet of paper , he misplaced that and on a visit a couple of months later asked for a replacement , guess what the 1st pedigree turned up after a year or so and the two were completely different go figure

he's a nice bloke but i think the dosh got the better of him over time

How about hes an old bloke that has had ill health in recent years just maybe that had something to do with it ,i wish and hope i can get out and about like him when im his age . I dont agree with all the pup selling but with all this talk of his dogs now being shit ,it sounds strange to me that men who are supposed to have better lines of dogs are still trying to get pups out of some of his stock ,doesnt say much for theirs .

err did i say his dogs were shit no i didn't i said they were to game 'its not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog ' was what he used to chuckle at us

he's knocking on now allright but this was all 15 years ago not yesterday